"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent...

@Nitish,

I think I agree with Epicurus. If evil is produced by God, then who can consider it evil?

If humans chaffe at what they perceive as evil, then they rebel against God in their hearts, making them guilty of the only real evil there is--sin. If God produces sickness, for example, then it would be evil to heal the sick, since it would contradict His divine order.

Consider this: if God made evil, and if humans are made in His image and likeness, then surely He must suffer from it, as well, since humans suffer from it all the time. Yet how could God be subject to His own creation? How could the the Principle of the universe be contradicted by the universe? Philosophy and theology collide at the very moment these questions are asked.

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@Nitish,

Nitish wrote:

"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"-Epicurus.

Answer?????

Nitish, think about this for a second. If you didn't know hot would you know cold? Would electricity be anything without oppositely charged particles?

We have a choice to prevent our own evil . . . are we malevolent?

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@Dustin phil,

Dustin wrote:

Nitish, think about this for a second. If you didn't know hot would you know cold? Would electricity be anything without oppositely charged particles?

So we are unable to know God's goodness without knowing an equally infinite evil? And to know yet greater good requires knowing yet greater evil?

Quote:

We have a choice to prevent our own evil . . . are we malevolent?

That could be easily argued...

One domain of Holocaust theology, incidentally, is that God willed himself out of existence during the Holocaust. If Abraham and Moses experienced revelation from God, then the Jews of Europe in WWII experienced God's anti-revelation.

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@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

So we are unable to know God's goodness without knowing an equally infinite evil? And to know yet greater good requires knowing yet greater evil?

Do you believe someone who didn't know hot, because they lived in Antarctica their whole life, could appreciate or even realize the benefits of air conditioning?

Perhaps if they were given this knowledge; and they have been given the knowledge of good and evil. The two where created to choose from, or how would there be free will?

Aedes wrote:

That could be easily argued...

One domain of Holocaust theology, incidentally, is that God willed himself out of existence during the Holocaust. If Abraham and Moses experienced revelation from God, then the Jews of Europe in WWII experienced God's anti-revelation.

That's a little strange. Seems you would have to forget all of God's attributes before you could believe something like this.

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@Nitish,

This is a tough issue, one I've worked through a thousand times and still return to it often.

I think that it definetely has to revolves aroung the idea of choice, or as I have begun calling it (in my debates with myself), "influential significant choice". Significant choice would be choices that can be made to some extent freely and result in real positive or negative consqequences. Influential choice would be choices that affect others.

Could an omnipotent and good God grant influential significant choice to "others"?

Or, on the other hand, could an omnipotent and good God create "others" and not give them influential significant choice?

If such a God could give this kind of choice to others, then evil could exist which did not originate in God. Of course there would still be the question of why that God would allow this to happen...

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@Nitish,

Nitish wrote:

"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"-Epicurus.

Interesting.

I would say it would depend on what one perceives God to be. Epicurus describes God as a 'He' and obviously separate from himself. A "somewhere out there" type of God. This is now how I perceive God to be so a direct answer to this question would be difficult, but here we go...

First, it's not God who creates or prevents evil, it's us... Mankind. We've created all the evil in the world and likewise we can prevent it. To place that burden on the unseen and unknown is silly IMHO. So God, not being able to prevent it doesn't fit my ideology either. Who or where is God and how so would God prevent something that mankind creates?

Impotent? Well, if you take a look at the complexity of creation and the sexed opposites of all that is created right down the cellular level, I would have to say that 'God' is quite potent.

People are funny. We hurt our neighbors, say mean words to our children, start wars based on religions... and then look to a deity in the sky and ask how come there is evil? Evil is as man has created it to be. If you embrace evil thoughts then your manifestations will match those thoughts. If people would just look around them and look in the mirror and take a close look at their own actions, they will quickly realize why there is evil. It's not God who is creating this evil it's man. Likewise, it's not God who is creating the good of man, it's man. We are creating beings and for some reason people just can't understand that. It's just so much easier to place the burden of responsibility on some unforeseen deity... what about looking within ourselves?

So long as people continue to blame God for the bad and evil in the world and not take responsibility for what man has created, we'll stay blind to that which is directly in front of us, beside us and within us.

We've created a God separate from ourselves just like we've created an Ego which is also separate from ourselves. Until we can step up to the plate and take responsibility for what we've created as a mankind, we will always ask questions in sheer blindness.

As a human being I know beyond a reasonable doubt that all the EVIL I have experienced in my own life is the evil I have created... but for a long time it was very easy to blame God.

I didn't read all the posts but wanted to respond to the original. This is my response based on my own perception of my own knowing.

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@Nitish,

Good and Evil are human constructs.

We define a good human as one whom is altruistic, empathic to the needs of others, self sacrificing for the good of the whole, trustworthy etc... all essential qualities in uniting a social group, this is a survival tactic like any other its parameters determined by natural selection, the human genome is not so selfish, its primary consideration is the survival of the genome as a whole, even if its not actually in the individual concerned, yet it may be perhaps, be in his/her child or brother/sister or niece/nephew the upshot is that these people with 'good' genes with the right culture and moral mentoring
are likely to help and assist their friends and family out of a basic human instinct common to almost all, affection for other human beings and by extension having empathy and a caring nature toward non human life forms as well in those for whom compassion comes easily or the genes are expressed strongly.

The Evil humans are generally defined as those without conscience, ergo they can do anything without feeling any social emotions such as remorse or pity or guilt, these people are defined as sociopaths and psychopaths.
They represent a small minority of the population, relatively speaking, about 4% in the United States, but that is not a global average, in fact it is rather high.
Anyway such beings are not born in technobabble with the mental greyware to run the attachment or love drivers, it is for them an alien concept, to be exploited.
This is an evolutionary feature polarised with the majority but nonetheless appears in our species, and is thus a valid statement on the nature of nature and ultimately if he exists, God.
They are those that will conquer and murder and control for their own ends, they are a survivor people in a way, the ones who would eat the last of the food, obsolete in a peaceful, safe world, unlike ours.

So if we define good and evil by our own values, then God is both or neither.
Because whatever your perspective of good or evil is nature herself is blind to both, and will cherish the winner.
When good men stand by and do nothing, or obey other stronger instincts, like fear or respect for authority, the sociopaths insert themselves and dominate sexually..sow their wild oats.... as well as in the traditional sense, thats what they do.
Wreaking havoc and destruction if powerful enough.
Great for destruction and renewal.
Toxic to the prospects of an enlightened ancient civilization.

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@Nitish,

Nitish wrote:

"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"-Epicurus.

Answer?????

Am I willing to prevent my children from falling and getting hurt, but not able? I am willing, and certainly able if I coddle them enough.
I am not impotent.

Am I able, but not willing?
I am able, but not willing because they need to stumble so they can learn on their own.
I am not malevolent.

I am able, and willing...but this will teach them nothing but to rely on me.
To prevent evil with mankind, would make god a dictator, and us his puppets with no free will of our own, which is his greatest gift to us.

If we were coddled, and evil stripped of this world, would we have purpose anymore?

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@Justin,

Hello Nitish (and everyone), this is a really hot topic, thanks.

Justin I'm assuming from your statement that you don't consider random accidents or natural disasters to be evil, right? Nothing is evil except from mankind.

I believe it is an innate attribute of our cognition to make good and evil distinctions and also inferences about cause and relationship. So we navigate in the world applying this treatment to all aspects from the mundane to the profound. We use these concepts of good and evil to make a plethora of good and evil distinctions every day without even thinking of it. This is also the foundation of ethics.

But is there a distinction to be made between evil and bad? Natural disasters are obviously bad but can they be evil? What is the higher state of good; great, or God? Can nature be good? Then why can't it also be evil? I think it is because we are entrenched in thinking good represents God and evil represents devil.

Natish's original question is an inquiry into the nature of God but it also searches for the logical explanation for evil. He states that evil exists so then this is true or that is true. God is "Willing but unable or able but unwilling"; impotent or malevolent. Assuming evil is only from man then this question also explores the nature of man and free will. (The previous thread on "free will" wore me out so I won't even go there.) You could say that if God made everything then He made man and the evil that is in man or the choice for man to choose evil over good. Neither of which necessarily indicates God's impotence or malevolence. But the idea that God created everything should account for the creation of evil as well as good.

And we shouldn't rule out the possibility that we live in a Godless fundamentally absurd world and are simply grasping at meaning in meaningless ether.

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@Dustin phil,

Dustin wrote:

Do you believe someone who didn't know hot, because they lived in Antarctica their whole life, could appreciate or even realize the benefits of air conditioning?

That's a very poor analogy. The mere fact of two qualities being opposite does not make them compare meaningfully to good versus evil. Good and evil are beyond qualities -- they consist in joy, love, happiness on the one hand, and suffering, pain, and loss on the other hand. You can feel joy without ever having experienced suffering, and you can suffer without ever having experienced joy.

Quote:

That's a little strange. Seems you would have to forget all of God's attributes before you could believe something like this.

No -- the theology assumes that doctrine and revelation isn't final -- i.e. there is a new chapter in our understanding of God. If the Israelites' bondage in Egypt was a critical moment for us as a people, so should be the Holocaust.

When I was in college (about 14 years ago now) I gave a talk about my grandparents' experiences during the Holocaust, and how it affected my views on God. A rabbi came up to me afterwards and said "You don't owe God anything. God owes you."

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@ogden,

ogden wrote:

Justin I'm assuming from your statement that you don't consider random accidents or natural disasters to be evil, right? Nothing is evil except from mankind.

To answer your question, yes you are correct. Random accidents aren't necessarily evil unless we perceive them to be evil. Acts of nature are directly controlled by the balance of man. When man creates imbalance nature will compensate in accord, thus causing natural disasters to return nature to balance.

So the evil is that which we create of something that started with a seed of thought. If evil thoughts weren't thought, there would be no evil. But it's definitely easier to create an image of God being Good and the devil being evil and there are two forces working against each other, one being good and one being evil. This is the image that we've created, thus the creation of it. ...sometimes I lose myself in thought.

To take a step back, I believe that GOD just is. God being the name we as man have given to identify a an image of a created deity. When God just is. The ether that we breath by... man is as any God man creates. Nature being love and balance, man being the co-creator of the universe. So we end up creating our own destiny... All that said, I equate God with Good.

As far as free will... how could we not? If we are creating and also created then how would the absence of free will even be possible?... another subject all together.

Turning into a hot topic though.

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@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

That's a very poor analogy. The mere fact of two qualities being opposite does not make them compare meaningfully to good versus evil. Good and evil are beyond qualities -- they consist in joy, love, happiness on the one hand, and suffering, pain, and loss on the other hand. You can feel joy without ever having experienced suffering, and you can suffer without ever having experienced joy.

Maybe it is a poor analogy!?

Aedes wrote:

No -- the theology assumes that doctrine and revelation isn't final -- i.e. there is a new chapter in our understanding of God. If the Israelites' bondage in Egypt was a critical moment for us as a people, so should be the Holocaust.

A few weeks ago, somehow, I found myself reading about Hitler and the Holocaust, but I couldn't bare to read anymore about it. A couple years ago, I attempted to watch Schindler's List and made it about a half hour through. Just absolutely horrible and unthinkable.

Aedes wrote:

When I was in college (about 14 years ago now) I gave a talk about my grandparents' experiences during the Holocaust, and how it affected my views on God. A rabbi came up to me afterwards and said "You don't owe God anything. God owes you."

My grandmother's whole side of the family is Jewish, so that makes me quarter Jewish. I wouldn't mind trying to find out more about it.

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@Dustin phil,

Dustin wrote:

A few weeks ago, somehow, I found myself reading about Hitler and the Holocaust, but I couldn't bare to read anymore about it. A couple years ago, I attempted to watch Schindler's List and made it about a half hour through. Just absolutely horrible and unthinkable.

My grandmother's whole side of the family is Jewish, so that makes me quarter Jewish. I wouldn't mind trying to find out more about it.

I always thought I couldn't watch movies or read books about it (all 4 of my grandparents were/are survivors, and my parents could never watch anything about it). But when I was a sophomore in college in 1994, and Schindler's List came out, I was talking to my grandparents on the phone and they told me that they had seen the movie. Considering they both survived Lodz and Auschwitz, my grandmother had been to Bergen-Belsen and Salswedel, and my grandfather had survived Sachsenhausen and a death march through Buchenwald, I figured that if they can handle this movie then I could as well.

From a personal point of view, it affects everything from my views on religion and family to my career choice. From a philosophical point of view, I think it is one of the defining moments of modernity and it's impossible to read any prior philosophy (or to generalize about humans) without considering what it means.

As for doctrine, remember that Judaism approaches its scripture and theology much differently than Christianity does. The life of Jesus, which was of course the foundational moment for Christianity, was a passing blink for Jews. But 70 years later, when the Romans destroyed the temple and the Jews scattered away, THAT was the foundational moment for Judaism. Judaism ceased to be a "priestly" religion centered around a holy site, and rabbinic Judaism became dominant. This was promulgated by the Pharisees before the Second Temple was destroyed, but it took over afterwards. And rabbinic Judaism (which now accounts for nearly 100% of the Jews in the world) believes that the Torah/Tanakh is the written law received by Moses on Sinai, but that he also received an oral law. This became encoded in the Mishneh and Gomorrah (together they form the Talmud), which were written in the first 600 years AD. The Talmud involves interpretation of Torah in light of modern events and challenges. So as part of this 2000 year evolution since the destruction of the Second Temple, Judaism has allowed itself to create new doctrines and beliefs based on circumstances. This is why major Jewish philosophers (living in the Golden Age of Islam, esp in Baghdad and Cordoba), like Maimonides and Nachmanides and Judah Halevy, were able to deeply influence our understanding. And it's why a few hundred years later the Kaballah entered the picture, i.e. Jewish mystical beliefs in Ashkenazy Europe.

Judaism is a religion that in part defines itself by exile. Exile from the Garden of Eden, slavery in Egypt and wandering through the desert, exile when the Babylonians destroyed the First Temple (and Kingdom), exile when the Romans destroyed the Second Temple, exile from the Spanish Inquisition and expulsion from Spain (as well as other European countries), and finally the Holocaust.

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@Nitish,

Quote:

No -- the theology assumes that doctrine and revelation isn't final -- i.e. there is a new chapter in our understanding of God. If the Israelites' bondage in Egypt was a critical moment for us as a people, so should be the Holocaust.

When I was in college (about 14 years ago now) I gave a talk about my grandparents' experiences during the Holocaust, and how it affected my views on God. A rabbi came up to me afterwards and said "You don't owe God anything. God owes you."

If you don't mind me asking, how does the Holocaust affect your view on God?

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@Nitish,

I probably wouldn't believe in God either way -- but the Holocaust makes me resentful of God, not just a neutral disbeliever -- it makes me glad I don't believe, so that I'm not challenged by the contradiction of a God who sat back and watched.

Why should I resent God and not just the perpetrators? Because after my grandparents' stories of praying while hiding in the walls during the deportations, of their description of what Auschwitz was like, and knowing how religious they were (one great grandfather of mine who starved to death during the Holocaust was a rabbi), God to me represents nothing but a last, desperate empty hope of people who were doomed one way or the other. Humanity failed them, then God failed them too.

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@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

God to me represents nothing but a last, desperate empty hope of people who were doomed one way or the other. Humanity failed them, then God failed them too.

But what if it's not over? What if something else happens that makes the Holocaust look quite insignificant, showing that man's self-rule was not possible without a total annihilation, and the Messiah really does come to save man while establishing a real government?

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@Nitish,

I see. I thought you still had some belief that there is a God that was influenced by the horrible stories. It seems like your influence would lead you to believing in a God who is in no way benevolent.

Do you think it is beneficial for people to have beliefs in God that keep them going in tough situations, or do you see people's faith as chasing a hopeless dream?

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@de Silentio,

Dustin wrote:

But what if it's not over? What if something else happens that makes the Holocaust look quite insignificant, showing that man's self-rule was not possible without a total annihilation

That will just reinforce my belief.

Quote:

and the Messiah really does come to save man while establishing a real government?

Ask me when the messiah comes and I'll let you know. Beyond that tell me what on earth else would make me believe in a messiah?

de Silentio wrote:

I see. I thought you still had some belief that there is a God that was influenced by the horrible stories. It seems like your influence would lead you to believing in a God who is in no way benevolent.

I believe that God exists in a relative way. God is real to those who believe in him. God is not real to those who don't. God is a beneficial God to those who believe so. Etc. There is a cultural God (what we hold within specific traditions), there is a vernacular God (i.e. a subject of conversation), and there is a personal God (how Dustin's idea of God differs from my God or your God).

Quote:

Do you think it is beneficial for people to have beliefs in God that keep them going in tough situations, or do you see people's faith as chasing a hopeless dream?

Sure. Some of my patients take great solace in God. And when they do I encourage it -- but I never assume it. When someone is dying or has died, I wish their family strength -- I don't tell them that God is watching over them -- because I want THEM to decide for themselves where to find strength.

But just imagine how vulnerable someone can be if they put that great faith in God in a situation of crisis, and then they come to the realization that God isn't listening or God isn't going to help. Not everyone is Job -- nor should everyone be.

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@Nitish,

I think that their is no actual evil in the world, because it's all a matter of perception. Some Christians (extremists mind you) think Muslims are evil. I quote G.W. "the axis of evil." However the same is thought by some Muslims (also extremists). 2 and -2 make 0, so if you choose to see gods wisdom in suffering then the world is a happy place in need of improvement. And because of sin (sin is separation from god, but not evil in the human sense, i.e. original sin) in this world god has us work, hence suffering because he didn't tell us what to work for.

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"Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent...

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