61
   

The Confederacy was About Slavery

 
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 11:06 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
. . . and study Setanta's latest scholarly entry.


You complain that Joe is being snide ? ! ? ! ?

That's OK by me, your posts are completely evidence free, anyone can see that.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 11:06 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
if something is indeed historic (as opposed to historical) you can't negate it.


Why "opposed"?
Something that is historic must be something "historical".
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 11:09 am
@Setanta,
Quote:
your posts are completely evidence free
HEY, I copywrighted that phrase so you owe me the nominal fee.
carry on
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 01:20 pm
@farmerman,
Maybe, BillRM et al believes slaves didn't produce off springs to continue the "slave trade."

There were four million slaves in the US in 1860; of coarse, they didn't have sex or produce any babies. Yea, sure; you wanna buy a bridge in Montana?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 01:33 pm
@farmerman,
Farmerman once more there was no foreign imports or very very tiny foreign import of slaves after 1820 and as a result the price of slaves was in the upward direction. If it had been allow therefore there would have been a health market for new slaves as the breeding of new slaves was not keeping up with the demand. Once more see the history of raising prices

Slave trading or slave moving among southern states was indeed common and so what as that is the normal part of having a slave system.

Hell one of the many points of friction between the north and the south was the fate of slaves taken in and out of free states with the SC ruling in favor of the south more often then not.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 03:11 pm
@BillRM,
Quote:
That is such a non-fact. It means nothing since the population of slaves was alredy as high as the population of slaveholders and that the only freedom afforded to slaves was the freedom to procreate. BAnning "importation" of slaves assukmes that slavery would die? No, the border slave states saw themselves as "feedstock" centers for providing new slaves via birth.
I said that it was a non-fact because whoever started that line was WRONG. In 1820, the only thing relevant in this specific topic was the Missouri compromise which allowed Mo to keep slavery but outlawed slavery at the southern Mo Boundary. It was hassled over and finally adopted (But was repealed anyway in the KAnsas Nebraska act of the 1850's.

The actual slave importation language was very specificIN 1808Congress banned the importation of slaves FROM AFRICA only. There was still importation from the Carribean . SO, unless Ive missed something , Im not sure where you and High Seas were coming from on this. As the cotton industry demanded workers, the slave trade grew in the early 1800's and as CI said, there were more slaves than citizens in the South at the outbreak of the Cifil War.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 04:15 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The actual slave importation language was very specificIN 1808Congress banned the importation of slaves FROM AFRICA only. There was still importation from the Carribean . SO, unless Ive missed something , Im not sure where you and High Seas were coming from on this. As the cotton industry demanded workers, the slave trade grew in the early 1800's and as CI said, there were more slaves than citizens in the South at the outbreak of the Cifil War.


First there was not more slaves then whites in most of the Southern states ever.

Maybe North/South Carolina was in that position if memory serve me correctly but not the bulk of the Southern states. The break down overall was roughly 8 million whites to 4 millions slaves.

Second there was no large scale movement of slaves from the Caribbean to the US and I would love to see any of you who are claiming otherwise to provide links!!!!!!!!!

We are getting to the point where people are making up **** it would seem.

Here is a detail link concerning the histroy of the laws dealing with the importng of slaves.

http://abolition.nypl.org/print/us_constitution/
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 04:16 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

High Seas wrote:
if something is indeed historic (as opposed to historical) you can't negate it.


Why "opposed"?
Something that is historic must be something "historical".


The question is whether the converse of your statement is true: it manifestly is not. Or, alternatively, you have joined the great Heidegger in his eccentric interpretation of "a" at the beginning of just about any word in just about any language including ancient Greek and German. Joe had the good grace to state he was unaware of the term "ahistorical"; perhaps you also will have the good grace to read this exchange with Fresco, who finally agreed with me:
http://able2know.org/topic/167128-2#post-4493154

Apologies to thread for digression, but since the Stephens speech has been widely quoted here it's worth recalling Stephens made it in opposition to the annexation of all (ALL) Mexican territories in addition to those ceded by treaty at the end of that war. There was no suggestion of enslaving Mexicans!
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 04:27 pm
@farmerman,
You know I respected you more then to think you would take part in supporting false claims such as there were more slaves then whites in the south or that any large import of slaves from anywhere including the Carribean into the south occur after 18o8 and surely not after 1820.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 04:27 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
I said that it was a non-fact because whoever started that line was WRONG. In 1820, the only thing relevant in this specific topic was the Missouri compromise which allowed Mo to keep slavery but outlawed slavery at the southern Mo Boundary..... SO, unless Ive missed something , Im not sure where you and High Seas were coming from on this. ....

Speaking for myself I wonder that more people don't know the reason for the existence of 2 Kansas Cities, KCMO and KCKS - one city, two states. You're right I only show up on this thread very episodically but I do post factual info - and never insults, as you mistakenly allege. Still think Snood is hilarious <G>
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 04:54 pm
@BillRM,
You are starting to sound like Donald Trump. Ive shown you that in 1820 the Missouri Compromise was the issue. Then when I corrected you about the 1808 Act to ABolish slaves from Africa, you deny that slaves were imported from the CAribbean. Well sir, a small part of the 1808 Act was the "CONTROL" (not the ban) of "coastwise Slave trade' this levied fees per slave and controlled the ships handling slaves coastally transported in coastal waters (some were from the Caribbean Islands) Even so, slaves were constantly being imported despite the 1808 specific law. Perhaps youve heard of the cases involving the ships Creole, and la Amistad These slave revolts occured in 1837 and 1841 ( respectively [-1]). Of course you do know that slavery in the Union wasnt ended until the 13th and 14th amendments added some Constitutional muscle

Im sure you dont play that game of needing a host of links to show that something is true when I am giving you the smarts to have known these facts.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 04:59 pm
@farmerman,
From williamapercy.com.

Quote:
Re-exportation: The Illegal Slave Trade From Cuba to the United States, 1808-1862

Philip Curtin estimated that Cuba imported almost 500,000 slaves between 1811 and 1870 (The Atlantic Slave Trade,1969). His curious bracket has no chronological significance since both the start and end dates reflect no pivotal historical occurrences within the slave trade. We are primarily concerned with the history of the illegal slave trade to the United States via Cuba, which began on New Year's Day, 1808, when the U.S. Congress prohibited the importation of slaves from Africa. To clarify the importance of slave trafficking to Cuba in relation to the re-exportation of slaves to the U.S., our analysis of the time-line necessarily extends to 1865. The ending of the American Civil War tends to obscure the almost total decline of slave importations to Cuba in this year, an oversight obviated even more by the tremendous peak year of African slave imports to Cuba in 1859. This is an interrelated phenomenon that has not been properly addressed in the endlessly stultifying scholarship on African slave demographics for the antebellum U.S. If we are to believe data provided by the Transatlantic Slave Trade Database, Curtin's numbers are significantly off the mark in calculating imports to Cuba in the 19th century. The database increases the number to more than 713,000 disembarked in Cuba between 1808 and 1865. Nearly a quarter of a million slaves imported to Cuba in these periods were not accounted for by Curtin or his protégé David Eltis, whose estimates inform nearly all recent scholarship on Cuban slave demographics.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 05:04 pm
@farmerman,
I will concede that the population of whites was a bit higher than the population of slaves, but not by much.

The population of the SOuth at the time of the Civil war was 9 million, of which 4 million were slaves and an additional 350000 were free blacks who were both slaves and "Civilized Cherokee tribesmen who somehow managed to evade the mass deportation during Andy JAcksons era. Otherwise I dont know how that many freed blacks could live in the south and not suffer reprisals from the slave hunters.
Anyway, adoin the math(s) 9000000-4350000=4850000 ( whites).

SO you are correct but Ill bet you didnt have a clue about how close the numbers were.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 05:16 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
You are starting to sound like Donald Trump. Ive shown you that in 1820 the Missouri Compromise was the issue. Then when I corrected you about the 1808 Act to ABolish slaves from Africa, you deny that slaves werent imported from the CAribbean. Well sir, part of the 1808 AQct was the "CONTROL" (not the ban) of "coastwise Slave trade' this levied fees per slave and controlled the ships handling slaves coatally aqnd (some were from the Caribbean Islands) Even so, slaves were constantly being imprted despite the 1808 spoecific law. Perhaps youve heard of the cases involving the ships Creole, and la Amistad These slave revolts occured in 1837 and 1841 ( respectively [-1]).


Slaves was not causal property and details records were therefore kept and are still around so show me one repeat one link to one study back by records that claims that there were any numbers of slaves imported to the US from the Caribbean in the time period we are talking about 1808 and afterward.

Oh are your backing always from the silliness that there was more slaves then non-slaves in the south overall or not?

Now as far as the slave revolt aboard the Amistad as that ship was not headed to any US port of call south or north before the upraising so what does it have to do with the US allowing slaves to be imported to the US????!!!!!????

Throwing sands in people eyes in the hope we do not know the facts?

BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 05:32 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
I will concede that the population of whites was a bit higher than the population of slaves, but not by much.


The population of whites was 5,447,220 and the population of blacks was 3,521,110 by the 1860 census so your math is a little off once more. Oh sorry there was 132,000 free blacks also.

The two states that had more slaves then whites out of a total of 11 states are South Carolina and Mississippi.

http://www.sewanee.edu/faculty/Willis/Civil_War/tables/ConfedPop1860.html
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 05:43 pm
@BillRM,
Here are some other numbers that follows closer to farmerman's.

From Wiki.
Quote:
Distribution of slaves
Percentage of slaves in each county of the slave states in 1860
Census
Year # Slaves # Free
blacks Total
blacks % Free
blacks Total US
population % Blacks
of total
Year......#Slaves...#Free....Total blacks...%Free...blacks...Total US...$blacks
1790 697,681. 59,527 757,208 7.9% 3,929,214 19%
1800 893,602 108,435 1,002,037 10.8% 5,308,483 19%
1810 1,191,362 186,446 1,377,808 13.5% 7,239,881 19%
1820 1,538,022 233,634 1,771,656 13.2% 9,638,453 18%
1830 2,009,043 319,599 2,328,642 13.7% 12,860,702 18%
1840 2,487,355 386,293 2,873,648 13.4% 17,063,353 17%
1850 3,204,313 434,495 3,638,808 11.9% 23,191,876 16%
1860 3,953,760 488,070 4,441,830 11.0% 31,443,321 14%
1870 0 .... 4,880,009 4,880,009... 100% 38,558,371 13%
Source:"Distribution of Slaves in US History". Retrieved 2010-05-13.


Looks like close to four (4) million slaves in 1860.
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 05:47 pm
@BillRM,
For the record the Amistad when it was taken over by the slaves was headed from Havana to another Cuban port of call it was not taking part in bringing slaves to the US!!!!!!!

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 05:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The census did under report black slaves in the CSA, so we may never have an accurate number. But I do concede that the number of total freemen were greater than the number of slaves. The number of slaves v slaveholders , on the other hand wasnt even close.

However, the point I made was that the importation of slaves did not stop with any " Banning" of the importation from Africa . AND traffic via the CAribbean was quite healthy into the Civil war cause the industry needing slaves was growing. Cotton and tobacdco were (qnd are ) intensive care =for crops.

BillRM
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 05:50 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Looks like close to four (4) million slaves in 1860.


3.5 millions is close to 4 millions I guess by your math.
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Sun 1 May, 2011 05:52 pm
@BillRM,
But it's 3.9 million; yes, many will round it out to 4 million. It depends on the subject matter, but the number of slaves between 3.9 million and 4 million is not a point for challenge - except for people like you!
 

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