61
   

The Confederacy was About Slavery

 
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 12:49 am
@Ionus,
Io, do you read what you post?

You are in a thread talking about the denail of many that the civil war was about slavery, and then you lazily post something like this. Two statements of notable import from your source:

Quote:

Lee distinguished himself as an exceptional officer and combat engineer in the United States Army for 32 years before resigning to join the Confederate cause.

(1) He elected to join the Confederate cause.

Quote:

Lee supported President Andrew Johnson's program of Reconstruction and intersectional friendship, while opposing the Radical Republican proposals to give freed slaves the vote...

(2) Post war, he still stood in the way of equal rights for slaves.

Yes. It's nauseating that he is held up in such praise. I'm not jealous at all. Lincoln, is forever held in one of the most beautiful monuments in DC, while across the Potomac River, Bobby Lee's land was where we buried the dead. A few confederate denialists can go worship him at the Arlington House if they wish, but they must wade through a cemetery reminder of the divide he supported to defend human livestock if they wish to get there.

A
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aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 01:43 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Are you ******* crazy ? Segregation occurred after the Civil War . It was a legacy of the justification for slavery because the North kept insisting that Southerners were immoral to keep slaves . If the North wanted them to be free, fine, but the South was not going to give them equality .

Read carefully...

Money > Slavery > Justification against criticism > Entrenchment of attitude > Civil War > Spite and anger


Quote:
They not only didn't want them living next to them - they didn't want them sitting next to them in school, or on the bus, or drinking out of the same water fountain.This was only a problem when they were free to do so .


Oh, I get it....dark-skinned people were MORE valued-yeah - they were looked at as being MORE better at everything and that's why people were more willing to pay MONEY for them and treat them like animals- okay...so really they were the specially chosen chosen people.

And all the animosity and resentment (probably of them being viewed as worthy or being sold for MONEY while white people weren't) all started AFTER the civil war

Whatever.

You have no idea what you're talking about.



electronicmail
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 02:17 am
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

electronicmail wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

Some people are just assholes. They spout ... crap on the Internet

Are you for real? Snood has posted he spent years as a homeless - drug addicted - alcoholic - schizophrenic - wandering - around - DC and now he blames his nausea at the time on the ......tomb of Gen. Robert E. Lee?

That's the sickest thing I've read on this thread so far but he's probably not accountable for the crap he posts. The second sickest is your approval of that crap. What's your excuse?

You know, snood pulled himself up and R.E. Lee fought to hold others down. I'm more than happy for the life snood enjoys now and the esteem he deserves to feel for where is life is. R.E. Lee this and that is peppered all over Virginia, and it is nauseating. It is not just snood who feels so.

A
R
T

Nausea is what I feel each time I think of Washington's and Lincoln's birthdays getting combined to make room for a federal holiday celebrating a nonentity whose only claim to fame was getting murdered.

I'm more than ever convinced that racism is what it takes to object to Obama chimp pictures when Bush chimp pictures went unchallenged for 8 years. What's the difference between the 2 if it's not racism?

Having fanatics like Snood on your side makes your case weaker, not stronger. I'll take your word for it that he "pulled himself up" to where he begrudges a man his tomb but I don't want to hear your definition of what's "down" from there. Probably grave desecration.
electronicmail
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 02:21 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:


Quote:
Robert Edward Lee (January 19, 1807 – October 12, 1870) ..... remains an iconic figure of American military leadership.


Until I read some of the posts here I didn't know anybody denied that. Sad but true.
0 Replies
 
dadpad
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 03:10 am
@snood,

Quote:
the anonymous bravery with which some people behave from behind their keyboards really rankles sometimes...


Maybe Ionus should pay a visit to The Foundation for Aboriginal and Islander Research Action (FAIRA).
Perhaps they could come to his house for a beer or a cuppa and educate him about how black Australins see things.

Quote:
FAIRA is an indigenous rights organisation concerned with human rights issues as they affect the Indigenous Peoples of Australia and elsewhere in the world. FAIRA endeavours to promote the practical use of studies and research under the control of Indigenous Peoples to pursue rights and equality, rejecting the tendency to study Indigenous Peoples from academic or pretentious perspectives.
http://www.faira.org.au/newroo.html


Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 03:33 am
The best reason i can see for not elevating Lee to the level of military icon is that he doesn't deserve it--it's a crock of ****. He consistently failed to do basic staff work while in command of an army, and he was profligate of the lives of his men. In fact, one could make a cogent argument that he shortened the war by throwing away the lives of his men. The only argument against that is that it would do just what Lee so commonly did after he ceased to be Davis' military advisor and became an army commander--ignore all the other theaters of war.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 04:10 am
By the way, if anyone were to allege that i'm criticizing Lee's military skills just for the sake of this argument, i would point out that i've made these criticisms of Lee literally for years at this site. In fact, earlier in this thread, i commented on this, and said that i would go into it in detail in another thread about the civil war so as not to clutter this thread. Lee was made "an icon" of American military history by the efforts of many people, but more than anyone else, Jubal Early made the effort in the years after the war, touring the South on speaking engagements in which he established and furthered the hagiography of Lee as great military commander. Lee doesn't deserve to be so described.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 05:19 am
Quote:
Lee distinguished himself as an exceptional officer and combat engineer in the United States Army for 32 years before resigning to join the Confederate cause.


This is misleading, and, in fact, it is just plain false. Contemporary Americans will see "combat engineer" as think of someone who builds bridges under fire, or blasts a path through enemy obstructions or defensive positions. For the first 17 years of Lee's career, he worked on harbor fortifications or the navigation of the Mississippi River--things that a modern American would consider the work of a civil engineer. It was not until the Mexican War that he actually had combat experience. Initially, he was made responsible for the transport and logisitcal support of General Wool's troops, before joining the staff of Winfield Scott for the second invasion of Mexico. He and his brother Smith Lee (an officer of the United States Navy) set up the batteries to shell Veracruz, which quickly surrendered. Lee was then made Scott's chief staff engineer.

Even then, modern Americans will likely not understand what his job was. He scouted enemy positions, and found routes for approach marches which would allow the Americans to get close to the Mexicans undetected before attacking. His two most notable forays in the capacity were at Cerro Gordo and finding a path through the Pedegral, an ancient lava fields south of Mexico City. This is not to say that he did not have real, physical courage--no one familiar with his career would ever allege that. But it was not at all the same as Thomas Jackson leading his little section of guns into a hail of Mexican artillery fire, or Ulysses Grant manhandling an artillery piece into a church tower to shell the gates of Mexico City.

After the war, Lee was eventually assigned to the Second Cavalry, established by Congress at the behest of Jefferson Davis, then the Secretary of War. It's officer ranks were filled with southerners whose careers Davis wished to prosper, such as the first commander, Albert Sidney Johnston, as well as Braxton Bragg and Henry Thomas. (Henry Thomas, a Virginian, did not, however, switch his allegiance in 1861--he remained an officer in the United States Army).

The Wikipedia article says: He became a postwar icon of the South's "lost cause," and is still admired to this day. Note, icon of "the South's 'lost cause' "--that's hardly the same as a military icon. Furthermore, the Wikipedia article whitewashes his attitudes toward slavery. They quote a letter to his wife, and D. S. Freeman's benign account of his attitudes, but they don't quote the letter he wrote to his son about one slave who was constantly running away--Lee advised that his son administer harsh physical punishment in front of the other slaves, and that he then keep that man apart from the other slaves. As well consider Thomas Jackson had a benign attitude toward slavery because he used to send part of his salary to the Negro Sunday School for slaves in Lynchburg, Virginia.

The Wikipedia article is a whitewash of the kind that has kept Lee on his pedestal for the last 140 years, it is just a rehash of the Lee hagiography. I dissent entirely from the view that he was a great military man, and i am personally disgusted by the attempt to whitewash his attitude toward slavery.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 06:11 am
@electronicmail,
electronicmail wrote:

failures art wrote:

electronicmail wrote:

DrewDad wrote:

Some people are just assholes. They spout ... crap on the Internet

Are you for real? Snood has posted he spent years as a homeless - drug addicted - alcoholic - schizophrenic - wandering - around - DC and now he blames his nausea at the time on the ......tomb of Gen. Robert E. Lee?

That's the sickest thing I've read on this thread so far but he's probably not accountable for the crap he posts. The second sickest is your approval of that crap. What's your excuse?

You know, snood pulled himself up and R.E. Lee fought to hold others down. I'm more than happy for the life snood enjoys now and the esteem he deserves to feel for where is life is. R.E. Lee this and that is peppered all over Virginia, and it is nauseating. It is not just snood who feels so.

A
R
T

Nausea is what I feel each time I think of Washington's and Lincoln's birthdays getting combined to make room for a federal holiday celebrating a nonentity whose only claim to fame was getting murdered.

This more than anything else speaks to your lack of historical perspective. If you only see a non-entity, then I think your judgement is pretty far off.

electronicmail wrote:

I'm more than ever convinced that racism is what it takes to object to Obama chimp pictures when Bush chimp pictures went unchallenged for 8 years. What's the difference between the 2 if it's not racism?

You're omitting that a whole race of people where treated as animals, and that many racial derogatory terms for the same group very specifically referenced them as monkeys/apes/gorillas. No such established animal/simian meme exists for white people such that GWB's image carries the same weight.

electronicmail wrote:

Having fanatics like Snood on your side makes your case weaker, not stronger. I'll take your word for it that he "pulled himself up" to where he begrudges a man his tomb but I don't want to hear your definition of what's "down" from there. Probably grave desecration.

R.E. Lee is one thing, but the hero worship is the nauseating thing. We don't exactly celebrate or honor Benedict Arnold, I don't see why we should hold up Lee either.

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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 06:14 am
If anyone still had any doubt about EM's racism, the comment about Mr. King should seal it for them.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 06:55 am
@failures art,
Quote:
Yes. It's nauseating that he is held up in such praise.
Does your criticism extend to Union Generals and politicians who owned slaves ? Would you extend your criticism to Licoln Grant and others who came up with the policy of destroying the south, politically and economically ?

As hard as it is to swallow racism, it is harder still to justify what the Union did to their own people who loved in the South simply to ensure they never seceded again .

Nothing I quoted confirms the opinion that the war was primarily to end slavery .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 06:57 am
@aidan,
Quote:
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I have no idea what you are talking about . Some sort of rave....and I dont think you get it at all .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 07:05 am
@electronicmail,
I think they have forgotten that Lincoln was very unpopular with many Northerners and barely got into office . His second term was better, but his popularity really started to take off after he was assassinated . His popularity now is due to thinking of him as the man who freed the slaves, even though he didnt want to, and a natural tendency to rally around the leader in a war, plus guilt at having killed him .

Washington wasnt perfect either.....he turned down a wage to receive only expenses which turned out to be many times what they wanted to pay him for a wage .

I agree with you and see no reason to vilify Robert E Lee .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 07:10 am
@failures art,
Quote:
We don't exactly celebrate or honor Benedict Arnold
Because he was on the losing side . The man was a hero for HIS cause...stop rewriting history to agree with your politics now . If the British had of won and the colonies were not lead astray buy a group of radical revolutionaries and terrorists, you would be celebrating him .

Quote:
No such established animal/simian meme exists for white people such that GWB's image carries the same weight.
Many cultures in Asia think very highly of the monkey and Japan for one has the white monkey in its fables .
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 07:13 am
@dadpad,
Quote:
Maybe Ionus should pay a visit to The Foundation for Aboriginal and Islander Research Action (FAIRA). Perhaps they could come to his house for a beer or a cuppa and educate him about how black Australins see things.
Very Happy Unbelievable . Just what do you know about what I have done ?
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 07:24 am
By the way, to dispose of some more of EM's bullshit--Lincoln's birthday was never a Federal holiday. In 1968, the Uniform Monday Holiday Act was passed, which established a holiday on March 4th, and now observed on the third Monday in February, which has since become President's Day. That was 1968, mind--Martin Luther King Jr. Day was not celebrated as a Federal Holiday until January, 1986.

EM is a bullshit artist, and like most bullshit artists, he doesn't in fact know what the hell he's talking about.
0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 07:31 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Quote:
We don't exactly celebrate or honor Benedict Arnold
Because he was on the losing side . The man was a hero for HIS cause...stop rewriting history to agree with your politics now . If the British had of won and the colonies were not lead astray buy a group of radical revolutionaries and terrorists, you would be celebrating him .

Seriously? No really... you seriously don't read your posts so you. You didn't at any point in typing this think about how stupid this is.

England lost.
Benedict Arnold lost.

The Confederacy lost.
Robert E Lee lost.

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
No such established animal/simian meme exists for white people such that GWB's image carries the same weight.
Many cultures in Asia think very highly of the monkey and Japan for one has the white monkey in its fables .

Sure, and if we'd spent 200 years honoring Africans instead of murdering and selling them while mocking them as animals, we'd not be having this conversation at all.

A
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DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 07:36 am
@failures art,
You quoted that whole exchange, and failed to absorb the central premise.

"Some people are just assholes. They spout ... crap on the Internet "
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 02:01 pm
@failures art,
While I think that Io is an idiot, you missed something.

What he posted, and you quoted half of, was that Lee opposed giving freed slaves the vote and at the same time taking it away from former confederates.
The way I read it, the two are connected, not separate.

IF my reading is correct, the IMHO Lee took the correct position.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Apr, 2011 02:23 pm
@mysteryman,
I don't ever read lo's posts, MM, but it's a sensible position to take.
 

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