61
   

The Confederacy was About Slavery

 
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 06:36 am
Well, not to paint everyone with the same broad brush, because some people actually do study and learn the history of a country that is not their own, but one thing I've observed having lived in another country is how muddled and mixed up seemingly very intelligent and educated, well-read people can be when it comes to another country's history.

I've been told that the America has bombed Cuba - huh? I was like, 'When?' And I was told that we bombed them in the 1960's. HUH?

I was also told by a very intelligent man that Abraham Lincoln wanted the slaves in the south to be emancipated so that he could then transfer them from the cotton and tobacco fields to work the factories in the increasingly industrialized north- as SLAVE labor...huh?

I was also told that Texas, New Mexico and Arizona were instrumental in the cause of the confederacy.

I was also told that New Jersey was a southern state- and that I hailed from a slave state.

I literally had to show this person on a map of the United States where the Mason-Dixon line was and explain to him the geography of the Confederacy vs. Union states.

He was fed all this misinformation by a British bloke who is a confederate sympathizer and travels to the US to do Civil War re-enactments.

To be fair, if someone were to ask an American to hold forth on the English Civil War and/or Reformation...how many of them would be able to accurately recount any information at all?
And if someone asked an American if Lancashire was in the south or north of the country - how many would know without looking at a map.

History is all about context and nuances and if you don't have those - you really can't get an accurate picture.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 06:45 am
@farmerman,
Here is a snippet from the thread that Set started on occasion of the Sesquicentennial of the US Civil WAr that officialy begins on APril 12 2011. There were several Congressional actions that attempted to define and permit slaveholding in several states .These attempts were mostly hlf assed and did not stop the states from seceding or hostilities from starting.
Here is the last of the actions that were taken by the US Congress in full (with the exception of the 5 states that had seceded the pevious December (1860)). This action has been called the WQashington "Peace " Conference of February 1861. The outcome was a series of resolutions that, ultimately , didnt work and the rest of the Confederacy states seceded between Feb amd June of 1861

Quote:
AS A RUNUP TO ACTUAL WAR , THERE WAS THE WASHINGTON PEACE CONFERENCE THAT ATTEMPTED TO PREVENT ANY FURTHER STATES FROM SECEDING AND TO HOPEFULLY AVOID ANY FURTHER HOSTILITIES
This is from the Richmond Dispatch as reported by the Civil War Sesquicentennial Blog entitled Four Score and TEN

Quote:
Washington, Feb. 27.

–the Peace Conference has passed, by a vote of 9 to 8, the sub-substitute of Mr. Franklin. The following is the document:

1. Sec. 1st. In all the present Territory of the United Sates North of the parallel of 30 degrees, 30 minutes of North latitude, involuntary services, except in punishment for crime. is prohibited. In all the present Territory, South of that line, the status of persons held to service or labor, as it now exists, shall not be changed.– Nor shall any law be passed by Congress or the Territorial Legislature to hinder or prevent the taking of such persons from any of the States of this Union to said Territory, nor to impair the rights arising from said relation; but the same shall be subject to judicial cognizance in the Federal Courts according to the course of the common law. When any Territory north or south of said line, with such boundary as Congress may prescribe. shall contain a population equal to that required for a member of Congress, it shall. if its form of government be republican, be admitted into the Union on an equal footing with the original States. with or without involuntary servitude, as the Constitution of such State may provide.

2. Sec. 2. Territory shall not be acquired by the United States, unless by treaty; nor, except for naval and commercial stations and depots, unless such treaty shall be ratified by four-fifths of all the members of the Senate.

3. Sec. 3. Neither the Constitution, nor any amendment thereof, shall be constructed to give Congress power to regulate, abolish or control with in any State or Territory of the United States. the relation established or recognized by the laws thereof touching persons bound to labor or involuntary service therein, nor to interfere with or abolish involuntary service in the District of Columbia without the consent of Mary land and without the consent of the owners, or making the owners who do not consent just compensation; nor the power to interfere with or prohibit representatives and others from bringing with them to the city of Washington, retaining and taking away, persons so bound to labor; nor the power to interfere with or abolish involuntary service in places under the exclusive jurisdiction of the United States within those States and Territories where the same is established or recognized; nor the power to prohibit the removal or transportation, by land, sea, or river, of persons held to labor or involuntary servitude in any State or Territory of the United States to any other State or Territory thereof where it is established or recognized by law or usage; and the right during transportation of touching at ports, shores, and landings, and of landing in case of distress, shall exist. Nor shall Congress have power to authorize any higher rate of taxation on persons bound to labor than on land.

4. Sec. 4. The third paragraph of the second section of the fourth article of the Constitution, shall not be construed to prevent any of the States, by appropriate legislation, and through the action of their judicial and ministerial officers, from enforcing the delivery of fugitives from labor to the person to whom such service or labor is due.

5. Sec. 5. The foreign slave trade and the importation of slaves into the United States and their Territories, from places beyond the present limits thereof, are forever prohibited.

6. Sec. 6. The first, third and fifth sections, together with this section six of these amendments, and the third paragraph of the second section of the first article of the Constitution, and the third paragraph of the second section of the fourth article thereof, shall not be amended or abolished without the consent of all the States.

7. Sec. 7. Congress shall provide by law that the United States shall pay to the owner the full value of his fugitive from labor in all cases where the marshal, or other officer, whose duty it was to arrest such fugitive, was prevented from so doing by violence, or when intimidation from mobs or riotous assemblages, or when, after arrested, such fugitive was rescued by force, and the owner thereby prevented and obstructed in the pursuit of his remedy for the recovery of such fugitive.

It is reported that the Virginia and North Carolina delegations are divided, a majority in each being against the substitute. This report is not, however, authentic.

The Conference has adjourned.

[second Dispatch.]

In actuality, the Outcome of the PEace Conference was a rewording of the Missouri Compromise and The Crittenden Compromise
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 06:46 am
Well, i can find Lancashire on a map, and know that it is in the North (more or less) and i do know a good deal about the English civil wars. But that is not really what's at issue. People should know if they don't actually know something. If you don't know the geography of the United States, you shouldn't hold fort on the subject. By the same token, if you don't know how the American civil war started and why, you should be honest enough to acknowledge that.

EDIT: I once read a novel (rcommended to me, so i felt obliged to read it) by an Englishwoman, who recounted her characters meeting a Cherokee Indian, who was on horseback, and came from the mountains of South Indiana. Leaving aside that Indiana is as flat as a pancake, the location was written South Indiana, with the "s" capitalized, as though there really were such a place. I guess that passes muster with most readers in England.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 06:54 am
@aidan,
well spoke. I for one love to listen whenCanadians, Europeans or the Ozians discuss the blemishes of their own history and politics. I sometimews feel that we USers bloat up the airwaves with our own anthropocentric crap. Several of us are Us history "Bluffs" and guys lke set, who has creds in history and is waay deeper in his history than am I , add a perspective that makes the "international history timeline" come together as more than a series of unrelated events.

PS the MAson Dixon line actually runs North and SOuth at Delaware's Western border. so Jersey actually has one county that is officially below the MAson Dixon (were it extended through New JErsey). In NEw Jersey, the folks in CApe MAy consider themselves as "Southerners" and you will find restaurants that serve grits to the Philadelphia vacationers.

farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 09:00 am
@farmerman,
OF COURSE, there was the Crittenden Compromise, which was proposed and defeated in Congress before Lincoln even began his trip from Springfiled to Washington in FEb 1861

Quote:
THE CRITTENDEN "COMPROMISE"(the substance thereof)

Quote:
6 Amendments to the Constitution


1.Slavery would be prohibited in any territory of the United States "now held, or hereafter acquired," north of latitude 36 degrees, 30 minutes line. In territories south of this line, slavery of the African race was "hereby recognized" and could not be interfered with by Congress. Furthermore, property in African slaves was to be "protected by all the departments of the territorial government during its continuance." States would be admitted to the Union from any territory with or without slavery as their constitutions provided.
2.Congress was forbidden to abolish slavery in places under its jurisdiction within a slave state such as a military post.
3.Congress could not abolish slavery in the District of Columbia so long as it existed in the adjoining states of Virginia and Maryland and without the consent of the District's inhabitants. .Compensation would be given to owners who refused consent to abolition.
4.Congress could not prohibit or interfere with the interstate slave trade.
5.Congress would provide full compensation to owners of rescued fugitive slaves. Congress was empowered to sue the county in which obstruction to the fugitive slave laws took place to recover payment; the county, in turn, could sue "the wrong doers or rescuers" who prevented the return of the fugitive.
6.No future amendment of the Constitution could change these amendments or authorize or empower Congress to interfere with slavery within any slave state.
Fugitive slave laws

That fugitive slave laws were constitutional and should be faithfully observed and executed.
That all state laws which impeded the operation of fugitive slave laws, the so-called "Personal liberty laws," were unconstitutional and should be repealed.
That the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 should be modified (and rendered less objectionable to the North) by equalizing the fee schedule for returning or releasing alleged fugitives and limiting the powers of marshals to summon citizens to aid in their capture.
That laws for the suppression of the African slave trade should be effectively and thoroughly executed

The Crittenden Compromise , aCongressional intervention to prevent a Civil War, clearly shows that the primary issue of an impending war was slavery clear and simple.

0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  3  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 09:06 am
@Ionus,
Ionus,
I'm puzzled by your cavalier dismissal of Loewen's excellent article Five Myths.

I would think that a Sociologist-Historian would be the preferred academic to interpret the Civil War and the myths that arose from that era.

When I was a seventh grader circa 1964 we had a Virginia history textbook that was so biased that even I knew it was post Civil War reconstructed clap-trap. You know, the darkies were happy 'til the mean ol' Yankees invaded Magnolia land.

What I like about Loewen is that he believes in supplying students with TWO history books that trumpet two different aspects of history.

from wicki:

Quote:
He believes that history should not be taught as straightforward facts and dates to memorize, but rather analysis of the context and root causes of events.
Loewen recommends that teachers use two textbooks, so that students may realize the contradictions and ask questions, such as, "Why do the authors present the material like this?"


Here's more on his very important lawsuit against the state of Mississippi:

Quote:
Loewen co-authored a United States history textbook, Mississippi: Conflict and Change (1974), which won the Lillian Smith Award for Best Southern Nonfiction in 1975.
The Mississippi Textbook Purchasing Board did not approve the textbook for use in the state school system.
Loewen challenged the state's decision in a lawsuit, Loewen v. Turnipseed (1980).

The American Library Association considers Loewen v. Turnipseed, 488 F. Supp. 1138 (N.D. Miss. 1980), a historic First Amendment case, and one of the foundations of our "right to read freely."
Mississippi: Conflict and Change was rejected for use in Mississippi's public schools by the Mississippi Textbook Purchasing Board on the grounds that it was too controversial and placed too much focus on racial matters.

Judge Orma R. Smith of the U.S. District Court ruled that the rejection of the textbook was not based on "justifiable grounds", and that the authors were denied their right to free speech and press


Interestingly Ionus, your statement:

Quote:
So thats it then, whites can feel real good about themselves ?


is the focus of Loewen's criticism of the history books that were used and are being used in American schools...So that whites can feel real good about themselves.
Cheers mate!



mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 01:18 pm
@Setanta,
Set,
As a serious digression from this thread, Jean Auels new book is out now. Its called "the Land of Painted Caves" and is the last book in the series.
I remember you saying you liked them, so I thought I would let you know.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 01:41 pm
@panzade,
Quote:
is the focus of Loewen's criticism of the history books that were used and are being used in American schools...So that whites can feel real good about themselves.
And he is right about that, however he loses a lot of credibility with me with his back of the hand dismissal of the cause that the South claimed at the time and after to be fighting for. Loewen will give you a long dissertation on how the we all need to be called what we want to be called so the blacks have every right to demand that everyone else uses the racial terms that they want us to use, but when it comes to the South he changes course 180 degrees and says that their justification for succession should be ignored as a sham. Consistency would be nice, either people have the right to have their claims of who they are and what they want respected, or they dont. Loewen's lack of consistency makes it clear to me that he is a man on a political mission, which is fine, but dont then claim to be a dispassionate historian.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 01:53 pm
@hawkeye10,
Civil War Myths and Legends . . . The True Stories
© 2010 by David C. Hanson, Virginia Western Community College
Quote:
5. The two sides were not fighting for/against slavery.


The Northern armies were not fighting to free the slaves and the Southern armies were not fighting to defend slavery. The goal of the North was to defeat the Confederacy in order to restore the Union; the goal of the South was to win its fight for independence. From the beginning to the end, Lincoln made it clear that slavery/emancipation was secondary to reunion. (As it happened, the fate of 4 million slaves hung in the balance once Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation.)

Most Southerners owned no slaves--many such as Lee and Jackson favored gradual emancipation--but they were strongly opposed to abolition for political, economic and social reasons. Moreover, the powerful minority of slaveholders were calling the shots (politically speaking). In short, slavery precipitated secession and doomed the Confederacy. The Confederate government was unwilling to sacrifice slavery for the cause of independence, so there was no chance for a negotiated (political) settlement of the war. In this sense, it unintentionally became a war for/against slavery, but that was not why the two sides were fighting.

http://www.virginiawestern.edu/faculty/vwhansd/his269/myths2.html

THis conforms to my reading. I am not from the South, and my people fought on the side of the North, but I have far more respect for Southerners than most modern PC liberals do, I suspect that Liberals are still pissed that the South largely abandoned the Dem party and turned conservative.
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 02:14 pm
@hawkeye10,
So sorry you didn't go on to #6 hawk.

Quote:
6. Secession was about states rights, not slavery.

This is a myth, rarely heard at the time of the Civil War, and largely invented after the fact by Southerners seeking to separate the Confederacy from the abomination of slavery.

It is false to claim that the North was fighting to free the slaves and the South was fighting to keep them in bondage; but that does not mean the war was all about States' Rights and was not about slavery.

The two sides were fighting essentially BECAUSE of slavery. For all the political, social, cultural, and economic differences that divided the North and South, slavery was the root cause of secession and the Civil War.
.

Yes , Dr Hanson underlines the fact, in myth #6 that the Confederacy WAS about slavery; therefore agreeing with snood.
However, I have to thank you for bringing Dr Hanson forward. I really enjoyed reading his Civil War Myths blog.
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 02:17 pm
@hawkeye10,
I've heard others criticize Loewen in the same manner.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 02:17 pm
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

Can you pair of fools cite one document that lists an English slave being sold in England after the Norman Conquest ?

Well, the first slaves arrived in London in 1555. In 1595 Queen Elisabeth complained in a letter to the City of London that too many black slaves were there ... ....etc etc

Sources: Ackroyd, Peter: London. The Biography [I've only the German translation at home]
Gerzina, Gretchen Holbrook: Black London: Life Before Emancipation, Piscataway, 1997
Walvin, James: Black Ivory: A History of British Slavery, London, 1992

(There's more, but that's just what is behind me in the bookshelf.)


As for documents: go to the London Metropolitan Archives.
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 02:21 pm
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
I suspect that Liberals are still pissed that the South largely abandoned the Dem party and turned conservative.


I suspect you're wrong.

The Dixiecrats were a major embarrassment to the Democratic party and were instrumental in denying former slaves and their progeny the civil rights long overdue.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 02:31 pm
@panzade,
Sometimes the true story is missed for want of a "cliff note"
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 03:12 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I suspect that Liberals are still pissed that the South largely abandoned the Dem party and turned conservative.

Since the Democrats deliberately pissed off the Southern Democrats in order to get them to leave the party, I suspect you're completely wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Democratic_National_Convention

Quote:
When Minneapolis mayor Hubert Humphrey addressed the convention, he urged the Democratic Party to "get out of the shadow of states' rights and walk forthrightly into the bright sunshine of human rights," prompting a walkout by Southern delegates who later nominated Strom Thurmond as the presidential nominee of the States' Rights Party (Dixiecrats).
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 04:53 pm
@farmerman,
It is quite appropriate that your comments are racist in this thread . Of course it must be Australia that is the problem, no one would disagree with you if they were from the USA.....in fact, no one ever disagrees with you about anything, do they ?

You have a huge chip on your shoulder and now it seems you don't like Australians....you would have made a swell plantation owner .

Gomer the Turd must seek help .
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 04:59 pm
@Ionus,
So, you cant win an argument based on the premise and facts of the argument itself, Then you must sink to a lower level of logic, that being the argument that says

"If I cant win the argument, it must be because my opponent is racist"

ANUS must seek a new brain, the one he has aint working too well.
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 05:00 pm
@aidan,
Quote:
I've been told that the America has bombed Cuba - huh? I was like, 'When?' And I was told that we bombed them in the 1960's. HUH?
The USA overflew Cuba on reconnaissance missions and had plans to bomb if required .

Quote:
I was also told by a very intelligent man that Abraham Lincoln wanted the slaves in the south to be emancipated so that he could then transfer them from the cotton and tobacco fields to work the factories in the increasingly industrialized north- as SLAVE labor...huh?
If the war was fought and won by the North, and the slaves were not freed, one possible option was to employ them as factory workers in the north as it was thought the south would not survive as is from the war .

Quote:
I was also told that Texas, New Mexico and Arizona were instrumental in the cause of the confederacy.
And.......
Quote:

He was fed all this misinformation by a British bloke who is a confederate sympathizer and travels to the US to do Civil War re-enactments.
Where the information was given to him by a USA citizen, most probably .

Quote:
To be fair, if someone were to ask an American to hold forth on the English Civil War and/or Reformation...how many of them would be able to accurately recount any information at all?
To be fair, how many people in the USA know of anything but themselves and parts of their own history .

Quote:
History is all about context and nuances and if you don't have those - you really can't get an accurate picture.
Definitely .
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 05:05 pm
@panzade,
Quote:
I'm puzzled by your cavalier dismissal of Loewen's excellent article Five Myths.
I was cavalier because it is one persons opinion, nothing more .

Quote:
I would think that a Sociologist-Historian would be the preferred academic
Yes, but what are his qualifications in history ? At the end of the day, dont you think there are equally qualified people who think the opposite ? He says as much himself .

Cheers, mate !

0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 3 Apr, 2011 05:09 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
Quote:
Can you pair of fools cite one document that lists an English slave being sold in England after the Norman Conquest ?
Well, the first slaves arrived in London in 1555. In 1595 Queen Elisabeth complained in a letter to the City of London that too many black slaves were there
These would be black Englishmen ???? From Africa ????

Go to your sources and find me an example of an Englishmen being sold as a slave in England, because it was outlawed around 1200 AD. That other nations had slaves, including Scotland and Ireland till much later in their history was one of the first things I said on this topic .
 

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