Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of racism?

@Finn dAbuzz,

Quote:

Just want to add that it is calumny, and vile calumny at that, to assert that the Confederate Flag is the favored, or even frequent, symbol of Tea Party Movement members.

I haven't heard anybody saying that. I said I've seen a few people carrying them to Tea Party rallies but they're few and far between. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind they thought of that old battle flag in its original spirit of rebel flag and resistance to tyrants. The sentiment isn't limited to Tea Partiers either, confidence in the federal government is tanking, last time someone took a nationwide survey it was under 20%. I found a graph ending in 2006 and the updated numbers at this link http://people-press.org/trust/

http://www.themonkeycage.org/trusttrend2-thumb.png

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@mark noble,

quoting another poster (Linkat)

Quote:

Personally I never realized that this was a symbol of racism " most likely because I’ve grown up in the north. ....a New England school having a southern rebel symbol.

Can anyone doubt that school also saw it as a rebel symbol? I guess I have to exclude the hollow-earth and alien abduction crew from that one but I haven't noticed too many of them posting on this thread.

But I agree the battle flag isn't worth arguing about if it can be so misconstrued by some politically correct folks. I'd never heard that interpretation before, myself, maybe because I'm a Northerner too. Live and learn.

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@dyslexia,

Touche!

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@morell,

Did you deliberately ignore the fact that Occom was quoting or are you just in a pugnacious mood?

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

David, you are joining email in attempting to re-write history,

I deny re-writing history.

OCCOM BILL wrote:

and in the process attempting to the wash the bloodstains of 400 years of heinous racism from that flag. Why?

I deny having done that.

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Do you really not know your history?

I am confident that we both know the applicable American history.

The Confederate Battle Flag was created to replace the Stars and Bars
(for military purposes)
which had become confused with the Star and Stripes, in the heat and smoke of battle.

It symbolized the Confederate States of America.

The component States of that entity withdrew from the USA.

People have since hoisted that flag for a variety of reasons
one of which is racist and the other reasons of which are not.

I have seen the Battle Flag used as a symbol of the energetic spirit of rebellion and revolution or independence,
in social situations that were unrelated to race. In some such instances, it symbolized
(self-perceived) victims of abuse rejecting their abusers, turning their backs and walking out or having recall elections.

(To my surprize) I have personally seen blacks carrying the Confederate Battle Flag in parades.

When someone hoists a flag, exactly what he has in mind is known only to HIM.
When I hoist the Stars and Stripes on the 4th of July, I am celebrating personal liberty or the (relative) ABSENCE
of domestic jurisdiction of government. By that act, I exult in what government has been crippled and disabled from doing,
knowing that personal freedom and domestic jurisdiction of government are INVERSELY PROPORTIONAL.

Other men may have very different thoughts in doing the same act.
This applies to any flag.

David

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

Quote:

For what it's worth; I think your Tea Party has some good ideas. I'm something of a fan of Ron Paul as well. .... The general public's knowledge of the racist history of that symbol relies not at all on the bearer’s ability (or lack thereof) to recognize it.

I'm glad about the 1st part of this but I think you're wrong on the 2nd. You're the one who claims there's a racist history of that symbol. I just don't see how you claim to speak on behalf of general public's knowledge.

Some honest posters here (myself included) had never even heard of this alleged "racist history". Others had but granted that bearers of that battle flag may well have had a completely different intent in displaying it.

How many of those who stay silent or tag along with this "racist" allegation are just afraid to speak up? I don't know the answer to this but want you to honestly consider the question. Are you and some others piling on innocent bystanders? For what it's worth I found a checklist to be used by anyone railroaded into an opinion not really his own:

Quote:

6 Sure Signs You Suffer from the Addiction to the Opinions of Others http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-ferry/self-help-why-do-we-care_b_615063.html

1. You are Concerned about What Others Are Saying or think About You.
2. You Have Good Ideas and Intentions but Find Yourself Afraid to Act on Them.
3. You Over Leveraged Yourself Financially in the Last Decade with Cars, Clothes, Homes, Jewelry and More.
4. You Are Constantly Seeking Other People's Approval or Avoiding Their Disapproval
5. You're Afraid to Speak in Public
6. You're Afraid to Speak Your Mind

The only way to have complete freedom from this addiction is not to care about the outcome. It takes practice and courage to not place any level of importance on someone else's opinion. Remember, an opinion is not fact. It may not even be the truth. It is merely someone else's view about an issue that is based solely on personal judgment and therefore should not have any impact on your choices!

How many posters here meet most of these criteria? I've more respect for those with courage to disagree with "politically correct" views and don't cower when attacked online with epithets such as "racist" and the like. But the rest can at least try to practice.

1 Reply

@electronicmail,

This is a partial list compiled from the recent pages of this thread, the posters with the courage to state opinions not complying with PC rules. I'm curious why so many of their posts are marked down.
OmSigDavid
Khethil
H2O man
Mysteryman
Finn dAbuzz

2 Replies

@electronicmail,

electronicmail wrote:

This is a partial list compiled from the recent pages of this thread,
the posters with the courage to state opinions not complying with PC rules.
I'm curious why so many of their posts are marked down.
OmSigDavid
Khethil
H2O man
Mysteryman
Finn dAbuzz

This forum found its ultimate origin (so far as I know)
in another (defunct n extinct) forum called Abuzz,
which I believe was started by the NY Times around 2000,
advertizing it in its own pages. There was a lot of membership from NYC
and also from Boston. Ideological demographics being what thay are,
it acquired a predominantly left leaning membership; I was among the exceptions.
We are the refugees from Abuzz; this was our lifeboat.

Among the Abuzz and A2K membership I became known as a
libertarian Individualist, who showed signs of obsession with
the 2nd Amendment of the US Constitution as contemplated
by the USSC in D.C. v. HELLER 554 US 290; 128 S.Ct. 2783 (2008)

I am now eagerly awaiting the USSC's rendition of decision
in McDONALD and NRA v. CHICAGO, which I anticipate
on Monday June 28, 2010.

The reason for our posts having been marked down is emotional
dissatisfaction from members on the left; that is how thay manifest it.

Note that I am an advocate of fonetic spelling,
as set forth in my A2K profile. Profiles r handy if u wanna tell
everyone about your interests.

David

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@electronicmail,

electronicmail wrote:

This is a partial list compiled from the recent pages of this thread, the posters with the courage to state opinions not complying with PC rules. I'm curious why so many of their posts are marked down.
OmSigDavid
Khethil
H2O man
Mysteryman
Finn dAbuzz

You're joking right? Everyone on that list with the possible exception of H2O man (I don't bother reading his ranting often) are/were already well aware of the racist history of that flag's use. Scarce few will volunteer to be considered as ignorant as you're claiming to be. The only real quibble between posters who disagree with my take in a thoughtful manner; is whether or not the racist origin of that flag is still relevant, or whether or not willful ignorance of same is abhorrent. If memory serves; you are the only person on this thread claiming to be "proud" of Tea Partiers carrying that flag. Khethil, Finn (and I think David) have all pointedly said they personally wouldn’t fly it.

Comical that you would quote an article about appeals to popularity as a precursor to making one yourself. Conversely, I freely attack/agree with the right or the left (or neither) on a case by case basis, and your suggestion to the contrary is amusing at best. Clearly, your ignorance is not limited to the history of the Confederate flag... which I'll remind you was designed and flown in defense of racist atrocity.... flown officially for only a few years by a "nation" that was recognized by not one legitimate nation on earth. Google "symbols of racism", and wizen the **** up.

When you can bring an argument half as coherent David or Mysteryman (let alone Khethil or Finn) you will have learned. Choose to continue speaking from bewildered ignorance, and you'll likely lose what little audience you have now.

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@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

(To my surprize) I have personally seen blacks carrying the Confederate Battle Flag in parades.

This shouldn't surprise you, as ignorance owes loyalty to no particular race. Why do you continue to pretend an ignorant intent supersedes historical fact? If someone flips you the bird; do you consider that may just be their way of saying hello? Even if that's how you say hello; I wouldn't recommend adopting that symbol as meaning anything other than the general public's perception of it… especially on your way to a political gathering. I wouldn't recommend aiming a hair triggered weapon at your foot, either. Wink

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@OCCOM BILL,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

(To my surprize) I have personally seen blacks carrying the Confederate Battle Flag in parades.

OCCOM BILL wrote:

This shouldn't surprise you, as ignorance owes loyalty to no particular race. Why do you continue to pretend an ignorant intent supersedes historical fact? If someone flips you the bird; do you consider that may just be their way of saying hello? Even if that's how you say hello; I wouldn't recommend adopting that symbol as meaning anything other than the general public's perception of it… especially on your way to a political gathering. I wouldn't recommend aiming a hair triggered weapon at your foot, either.

I saw, but did not meet, the blacks carrying that flag; therefore, your guess is as good as mine
qua what thay had in mind; however, it strains credulity beyond endurance (in my opinion)
to believe that thay were ignorant that it symbolized the Confederacy which defended slavery.

I have a pretty strong hunch that thay knew that.

David

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@OCCOM BILL,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

(To my surprize) I have personally seen blacks carrying the Confederate Battle Flag in parades.

OCCOM BILL wrote:

This shouldn't surprise you, as ignorance owes loyalty to no particular race.
Why do you continue to pretend an ignorant intent supersedes historical fact?

I have sought to make the point that the choice to display that flag can be made upon the basis of multiple criteria,
to symbolize different distinct & independent concepts, some of which are unrelated to racism and others of which are racist.

Upon the strength of your recommendation, n relying upon your wisdom,
I will not carry the Confederate Battle Flag thru the streets of NY.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Quote:

Upon the strength of your recommendation, n relying upon your wisdom,
I will not carry the Confederate Battle Flag thru the streets of NY.

Never mind the Confederate flag, now even signs reading "one man one vote" are illegal in New York http://www.infowars.com/federal-judge-cites-voting-rights-act-to-rig-election-in-new-york-state/

http://static.infowars.com/2010/06/i/article-images/ballot2.jpg

Rand Paul's doubt on that "civil rights" boondoggle was prophetic

Quote:

The federal government has declared elections unfair in the city because residents have not voted for minority candidates.

1 Reply

@electronicmail,

It was not clear to me
from the article in your link whether cumulative voting
was made available only to Latin voters or to everyone.

Does anyone know which ?

If it is only to Latin voters,
then presumably there will be racial courts
to determine who is eligible for that status.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

No, it was made available to all voters but explicitly and specifically designed to elect Latinos. One of them was recently elected but his election is challenged in the courts.

1 Reply

@electronicmail,

electronicmail wrote:

No, it was made available to all voters but explicitly and specifically designed to elect Latinos.
One of them was recently elected but his election is challenged in the courts.

I think we shoud call them Latins, because that is the English word.
Y detour into Spanish ?

I 'm pleased to know that it is being appealed.

I hope that the USSC will grant cert.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

This cascade of bad law still trickling down from the misguided clauses of that 1964 legislation isn't going to stop any time soon. Brooklyn, NY, now is prosecuting based on a hair-raising interpretation of those infamous "hate crime laws". This is from the Ron Paul website with a link to a NYT article http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=2763841

Quote:

... committing a crime against a member of the same politically favored group to which one belongs can still be considered a hate crime if one considers one’s own group vulnerable to such a crime. ..Rather than finding new uses for hate crime laws to tilt the legal playing field even further in favor of prosecutors, the state of New York — and every other state, plus the federal government — should repeal such laws. Governments should cease treating people as members of groups and start treating them as individuals possessed of exactly the same rights, whether they are accused of being criminals or claim to be victims.

Nobody has appealed so far. The New York Tea Party is looking into filing an appeal, I wish them great success before the 14th Amendment is trashed completely and irrevocably.

1 Reply

@electronicmail,

What chance woud the US Constitution have had
of being ratified, if the Federalists had said:

"we get jd to regulate & control your emotions" ?

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

It's subtler than regulating emotions, it's regulating thoughts about emotions. What Orwell called "Crimethink". Many old leftists orphaned by the collapse of Soviet collectivism have since coalesced into an organization called "CrimethInc". They're active in political correctness and other thought police actions. We probably got one of their members here zeroing our posts Laughing

That's their logo.

1 Reply

@electronicmail,

from CrimethInc

Quote:

Crimethought is not any ideology or value system or lifestyle, but rather a way of challenging all ideologies and value systems and lifestyles—and, for the advanced agent, a way of making all ideologies, value systems, and lifestyles challenging.

The antithesis of "pc" in my mind

Note how your excellent post lifted from HuffPost dovetails neatly with this agenda.

1 Reply

Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of racism?

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