49
   

Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of racism?

 
 
Khethil
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 01:27 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
While I certainly appreciate your honest candor, as well as your fair-minded attempt to make room for a battle-flag symbol that is somehow divorced from its incredibly racist origins; your example doesn't work.


Thanks for taking the time to acknowledge my efforts, and I appreciate yours. I believe; however, that we're not speaking to precisely the same point.

Yes it was built upon quite racist principles, does that mean it's symbol therefore "is" a symbol of racism to all people? Certainly we can associate the two given the historical record, but one does not equal the other. They're distinctly different - though certainly related - concepts.

I've tried to illustrate this by bringing examples wherein certain aspects of a group of people can be attributed to the "icons" of the whole, as well as show how symbology can mean different things to different people. Both factors can cause people to not see these icons in precisely the same way.

One more closing note; I spent about 5 years in the deep south and got a good pulse on how folks view their flag (not all, obviously, but a very good sampling). I came across a vast variety of contexts in which folks view that flag; some more racist and destructive than I ever thought possible as well as others who simultaneously were proud of some aspects of their collective history while condemning the racist aspects for which its become so notorious.

Is that symbol, on its own, a symbol of racism? That would depend on who you ask.

Thanks for the exchange
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 03:20 pm
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:
One more closing note; I spent about 5 years in the deep south and got a good pulse on how folks view their flag (not all, obviously, but a very good sampling). I came across a vast variety of contexts in which folks view that flag; some more racist and destructive than I ever thought possible as well as others who simultaneously were proud of some aspects of their collective history while condemning the racist aspects for which its become so notorious.

Is that symbol, on its own, a symbol of racism? That would depend on who you ask.

Thanks for the exchange
There is no quibble between us with regards to whether or not some people think of this symbol as something other than what it was created to symbolize. This debate amply demonstrates that. However, I'd wager that virtually everyone who flies this flag does so knowing that it is the Confederate battle flag. Since the Confederacy itself came to exist in defense of heinous racism, anything created to symbolize it does just that. I know some basically decent, though willfully ignorant people too; but that doesn't change the factual history one iota. The fact remains that you can only consider this flag a symbol of something other than a racist institution via ignorance, be it willful or otherwise. It is what it is; a symbol of the Confederate Army, which was formed in defense of one of the most despicably racist institutions humankind has ever known.


0 Replies
 
electronicmail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 04:01 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
Than you may as well let the Neo-Nazis in too, because the majority of Americans will never take a group displaying such willful ignorance seriously, no matter how good your ideas may be.

You better educate yourself. The Tea Party has many black members who worry same as all the rest of us do that their kids are born with a $75,000 debt tag on their heads. I don't care what color you are but I want to know how exactly you claim to speak for that particular "minority"? Are you old enough to remember federal government interference with forced busing in the schools?

Our black citizens used to support it now they're so sick and tired of it they mostly support teaching their kids the 3 Rs. Illiteracy will get them nowhere, or do you really believe black citizens are so stupid as not to know that?

I'm not even going to address your idea we should seek neo-nazi support.
morell
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 04:17 pm
@electronicmail,
Occom Bill, electronic mail, has apparently clothed himself in magical dress--The righteous apparel of the truly tolerant, really American, objective, non-judgemental anti-racist. That makes him impervious to any attack. Of course, electronic mail, Occom Bill probably does not know the definition of "racism". That word, is used as a weapon to any and all arguments about racism. Thomas Sowell, a brilliant African-American scholar, states that "the most straightforward meaning of racism is a belief in the INNATE inferiority of some race or races".

Sowell indicates that to some, EVERY adverse judgement of the performance of a selected list of any racial or ethnic groups is racism. Sowell continues--"Thus, even sweeping denunciations of whites, "Anglos" or perhaps, Jews. may be exempted from the charge of racism.

So you see, electronic mail, Occom Bill would not agree that the Black Population of the US are fed up with busing to help Black kids achieve. I am sure that Occom Bill would chalk up the abysmal performance of black kids in the school to many factors but "racism" would be one of the most important.

I am sure, electronic mail, that liberals would never agree that beginning with the Great Society, Billions have been poured into the ghettos in US cities with little or no result in achieving scholastic gains. You see, electronic mail, the real reason that there are no gains is not the dysfunctional ghetto life style aided byt the left wing that insisted that "racists" have kept black people down and that they most accept the help of their liberal friends if they want to make it in society.

electronicmail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 04:32 pm
@morell,
Quote:
I am sure, electronic mail, that liberals would never agree that beginning with the Great Society, Billions have been poured into.....

Billions? Trillions and yet more trillions were wasted into "social programs".. Not particularly to do with liberals, Republican presidents are almost as guilty of wasting the nation's resources.

That's what the Tea Party stands for, getting our country back!
dyslexia
 
  5  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 04:42 pm
@electronicmail,
Quote:
That's what the Tea Party stands for, getting our country back!
getting back to what, we have the government we elected. Are you wanting King George?
djjd62
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 04:44 pm
@dyslexia,
was he the mad one that talked to trees?

cause that would be cool
electronicmail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 04:49 pm
@dyslexia,
George the 3rd ran up trillions in U.S. national debt? Leaving us to pay? Get a clue.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 04:52 pm
@Linkat,
Linkat wrote:

Locally, there is a high school that is called the Rebels. Prior to 1994, the Confederate flag was their school symbol. Confederate flags used to fill the bleachers at football games while fans sang “Dixie,’’ the Old South anthem. Yearbooks were emblazoned with the flag, and a celebrated coach went by the nickname General Lee.

Most of that ended in 1994, when school officials declared the flag an inappropriate symbol and eliminated it as an unofficial team emblem. But affection for the flag has lingered, and in the fall it appeared in the neighboring yard, resurrecting what some say is an uncomfortable era in the school’s history.

One black student said she is not bothered by the flag’s use at games because “I know people in the school are not using it against me.’’ But another said, “As a man of color, I find it offensive.’’

This use of using or not using the flag seems to be a conflict between pride for the school or racism and some feel very stronge one way or the other.

http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2010/05/25/in_walpole_rebels_pride_still_sparks_a_fight/?page=2

Personally I never realized that this was a symbol of racism " most likely because I’ve grown up in the north. The thing I found even odder was a New England school having a southern rebel symbol. Curious as to what others viewpoints are?



Hi Linkat,
All flags are symbols of patriotism - Patriotism is founded on the premise of prejudice - all flags are racist symbols.

Only when
doth no flags fly
Shall mortal men
No longer cry
"The stranger comes
Behold, awry,
Join as One
Or duly...die.

Patriotism is the virtue of the viscious (Wilde)


Have a great day Linkat.
Mark...
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 06:25 pm
@electronicmail,
electronicmail wrote:
I don't care what color you are but I want to know how exactly you claim to speak for that particular "minority"?
What a bizarre question; considering I've never claimed to speak for any particular "minority." You keep speaking of education but display precious little evidence of having any yourself. Have you read the Declaration of Causes of Seceding States? Do you think one needs a particular license to recognize this blatant racism for what it is?

For what it's worth; I think your Tea Party has some good ideas. I'm something of a fan of Ron Paul as well. But he who proudly sports a racist symbol does himself a disservice, regardless of what he wants to pretend it does or doesn't mean. The general public's knowledge of the racist history of that symbol relies not at all on the bearer’s ability (or lack thereof) to recognize it.
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 06:27 pm
@morell,
Possum? Is that you? Please never attempt to speak for me again, as I won't be bothering to correct such idiocy. Own your own foolishness. Btw, would you consider this a racist statement?

Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.

Could anyone be too damned dumb to interpret that as racist?
djjd62
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 06:32 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Possum? Is that you?


that was my guess
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 06:43 pm
Given that Possum, the dead kitty, never sinks below the extremely low standard by which this site now operates, i've long wondered why he leaves and comes back. Perhaps he reaches such a pitch of hysteria that the folks at the home increase the dosage on his meds, and take his computer privileges away until he calms down again.
0 Replies
 
morell
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 11:16 pm

Occom Bill, has apparently clothed himself in magical dress--The righteous apparel of the truly tolerant, really American, objective, non-judgemental anti-racist. That makes him impervious to any attack. Of course, electronic mail, Occom Bill probably does not know the definition of "racism". That word, is used as a weapon to any and all arguments about racism. Thomas Sowell, a brilliant African-American scholar, states that "the most straightforward meaning of racism is a belief in the INNATE inferiority of some race or races".

But perhaps we can learn from Occom Bill. It is obvious that he would never make any kind of a statement that could be considered racist. Occom Bill can even place himself, on a higher moral plane than the esteemed Jesse Jackson who said:
"There is nothing more painful for me than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start to think about robbery, and then to see it's someone white and feel relieved."

0 Replies
 
morell
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 11:28 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
The negro is not equal to the white man? What an absurd statement! Everyone knows that the African American scholar, Thomas Sowell, is superior in intellect and learning to 99% of whites.

As the brilliant Sowell noted:

"With varying degrees of explicitness, many people in many lands have recognized the capabilities of the Jews. the Chinese, the Lebanese, as reasons to discriminate against them. If "racism" is the appropriate label for such behavior, then clearly the word is not being used in the sense of a belief in innate inferiority. Sometimes a superiority has been conceded to the group targeted for discrimination...In Malaysia, it was argued: Malaysia has far too many non-Malay citizens who can swamp the Malays the moment protection is removed".
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 02:30 am
The Possum is back . . . and stupider than ever ! ! !

Although that hardly seems possible . . .
H2O MAN
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 07:40 am
@djjd62,
djjd62 wrote:

was he the mad one that talked to trees?

cause that would be cool


That would be Owl Gore.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 01:01 pm
@Setanta,
Yup. Hi Possum! Bye Possum!
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 01:05 pm
re massagato morrell: that quote that you attribute to Occom Bill is in fact from one of the founding documents of the Confederacy. Which pretty much ties up the knot about the Confederacyy and its flag being irredeemably racist. How nice you consider the quote nonsense. When did you come to your senses?
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Jun, 2010 05:14 pm
Just want to add that it is calumny, and vile calumny at that, to assert that the Confederate Flag is the favored, or even frequent, symbol of Tea Party Movement members.

I have no doubt that someone can produce a photo of the flag displayed by someone attending a Tea Party rally, but only someone intent upon maligning the Tea Party Movement will insist that such an image is the norm rather than an exception.

Members of the movement do tend to have disdain for people who would rather live off the sweat and toil of others than their own, but it's the true racist who interprets this to mean they have disdain for blacks and latinos.
 

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