49
   

Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of racism?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 04:49 pm
Just as words change meaning over time so do Symbols. If you want to know what the Confederate flag means to people you need to ask them. Unless you are very sure that they are self reporting a falsehood you should have the decency to take them at their word.

Most southern people who fly the flag report that it is a symbol of Southern Pride.

Most others say that it is a symbol of racism.

What we should all agree upon is the right to fly what ever flag we want. Sadly, we do not.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 05:22 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
What we should all agree upon is the right to fly what ever flag we want. Sadly, we do not.

We don't?

The school decided not to fly the flag. The man decided to fly the flag on his private property, which is his right. On the other hand, we have the right to discuss and comment upon his choice.
DrewDad
 
  4  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 05:26 pm
@hawkeye10,
I'll add this: It seems odd to me that you present yourself as some champion of free speech while simultaneously attempting to censor other folks' criticisms.

You're free to say almost any damned thing you want, and if I choose, I can tell you you're a damned fool. That's life; deal with it.
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 05:32 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
The man decided to fly the flag on his private property, which is his right
There has been significant noise about banning the Confederate Flag. I am happy to see that you are on the right side of this question.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 05:35 pm
@DrewDad,
Quote:
It seems odd to me that you present yourself as some champion of free speech while simultaneously attempting to censor other folks' criticisms.
When have I done this? I tell people that they should be ashamed of themselves, I tell them that they are wrong, but I dont recall over arguing that someone does not have the right to say what they want. I further argue often, and usually by myself, that people have the right to believe what ever they want as well. Your criticism of me is divorced from reality.
OCCOM BILL
 
  5  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 05:49 pm
@Linkat,
I don't even see the dilemma. The Flag was created in defense of slavery. The men who bled the ground red did so for or against a racist ideal. This was and will always be the Flag of the racist south, and they should be no less ashamed of it than Germans the Swastika.
Many more answers (including some of Set's finest work) here.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 05:54 pm
@hawkeye10,
I'll bet what has you confused is that I don't buy the "don't judge me" BS. We can't do anything right if we don't judge, and no matter what we say we almost always do judge. It is very sad how many people claim that they don't judge others but then science proves that they do, they just don't admit it to themselves.

I Judge everyone and every idea that I hear. I will support those whom I love no matter what, but they get judged just like everyone else. Unconditional love does not require lack of judgement. Everyone else get judged, and only get my support if I feel like it.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 06:00 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
The Flag was created in defense of slavery. The men who bled the ground red did so for or against a racist ideal.
It was about preserving a way of life, one that was dependent upon the continuation of slavery. It was also about state's rights. The victors write history, which is the only reason they read that it was all about continuing slavery.

I am not even from the south, do not agree with what they were trying to do, but unlike you I am at least honest about what went down.
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 06:31 pm
@hawkeye10,
Oh bullshit. If only the victors write history, why are the great military heroes of the American Civil War Robert Lee and Thomas Jackson? That old chestnut was from Napoleon, who got a far better reputation than the people who defeated him--the English--would have given him. The English in the early 19th century viewed Napoleon with as much horror, if not more, than their descendants 130 years later would view Hitler.

Lee was not a good military commander--certainly, he was one of America's great campaigners, but he was profligate of the lives of his men, he squandered them time and again in futile attacks. Yet the history which you claim is written by the victors makes Lee the great hero of the war. As usual, you spout bullshit platitudes, with no real clue about history, as is the case with just about any other subject you approach.

If it was about states rights, why did the southern states only choose to make war on the Federal government after Lincoln was elected? I'll say you the headache of actually thinking--they thought Lincoln would abolish slavery, which is why they started the war before he was even sworn in.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 07:25 pm
@DrewDad,
DrewDad wrote:

If you have a point, I'm not sure what it is.

Do you inspect every post on this site for language usage errors, or do you have some special interest in my posts?

FYI, I'm married and monogamous, so you might want to focus your attentions someplace where they might bear more fruit.


If there are grammatical or usage errors in your post, I've not spotted them, nor would I care much if I did. I make such errors all the time and unless they are flagrant, I don't think much of the critics who go out of their way to point them out.

My point is that, irrespective of how it was constructed, the comment of yours, which I quoted, is nonsensical.

"All the racists in Texas seem to display them..."

You're familiar with enough of the racists in Texas to make this statement?

You're familiar with enough of the Texans who use the symbol to know they are all racists?

"Nobody else does though."

As I've already asked, what about all the rest of the racists in the South (and elsewhere)? They never use the flag as a symbol of their racism?

What about the people outside of Texas who use the flag? Are you saying they are not racists?

Perhaps the comment was intended as a joke. If so, I confess I don't get it.

It makes no sense, and if that isn't lame I don't know what is.

I have no more of a special interest in your posts than I imagine you do in mine. You decided to interject a comment in relation to a reponse I made directly to plainoldme, but that didn't impress me as a reflection of romantic interest so your paranoia now seems a bit odd.

If you would prefer that I not comment on your posts, just ask. I'll be happy to accomodate you.
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 07:46 pm
The Confederate flag becomes a symbol of racism when someone (anyone) perceives it to be insulting to their race. Most people would then take the thing down. Wouldn't they?
realjohnboy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 07:52 pm
@Pemerson,
I would. But why is it that we have sports teams with names like the Cleveland Indians, the Atlanta Braves and the Washington Redskins?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 07:59 pm
@hawkeye10,
Apparently Setanta and Occum Bill are able to look into the souls of everyone who today use the confederate flag as a symbol and know that they do so because they are racists. Apparently they are even able to look into the souls of the the long dead and know that those who fought for the Confederacy did so for a racist ideal.

Why so many Southerners fought against their fellow citizens from the North is a bit more complex than simply a desire to enslave all black men and women, but I would have to agree with the argument that the continuation of the practice of slavery was at the core of the cause of succession and the war. We can cite causes like states' right, the election of Lincoln, and economic differences between the regions, but none of them have any real substance independent of the practice of slavery.

I've already commented that I understand why some might see the flag as a symbol of racisim, but I happen to agree with you that intent is a necessary consideration.

It doesn't really matter though because our friends have definitively answered the question, and any other discussion on the topic would just be dithering.

OCCOM BILL
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 08:22 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Apparently Setanta and Occum Bill are able to look into the souls of everyone who today use the confederate flag as a symbol and know that they do so because they are racists. Apparently they are even able to look into the souls of the the long dead and know that those who fought for the Confederacy did so for a racist ideal.
Not true. Some are well enough informed to know damned well that flag symbolized the South's last desperate attempt to maintain their superiority over what they collectively considered an inferior race, and some are just too ignorant to realize it. You just admitted you know the truth, so what's your quibble?

I do not think southerners need to be punished for the sins of their fathers anymore than I think Germans need to be punished for the sins of theirs. But they should stop short of celebrating their heinous history, which resulted in countless millions of human lives lost… not to mention the bloodiest war in this country’s history. Would you consider defending a Swastika display with a similar argument? I mean heck; the Nazis were only practicing their demented atrocity for what, a dozen years? Surely that’s no worse than 400 years of treating fellow humans as, well, slaves.
Pemerson
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 08:42 pm
@realjohnboy,
Hey, I was going to mention that but, well...

The American Indians used to be proud to have sports teams named after them, then they became uneasy, and now flat out don't like it and have asked that some be changed. (some have). I've written letters to editors about this because the schools actually argue against changing. Like the stupid names mean something.

The Mexicans are finally complaining about the bronze statutes on the TX capitol grounds glamorizing Texans killing Mexicans. There'll be changes, it's just a matter of when, I'm sure. I think the Ten Commandments stone is still there (Thou Shalt Not Kill!).
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 08:52 pm
@Pemerson,
Quote:
The American Indians used to be proud to have sports teams named after them, then they became uneasy, and now flat out don't like it and have asked that some be changed.
are you sure about that? I am under the impression that it is the do-gooder liberals who decided what was best for the Indians, that Indian names are insulting....though I have not followed this issue that closely, I think that the indians were pushed into agreeing with the know it alls.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 08:59 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
I do not think southerners need to be punished for the sins of their fathers anymore than I think Germans need to be punished for the sins of theirs. But they should stop short of celebrating their heinous history, which resulted in countless millions of human lives lost… not to mention the bloodiest war in this country’s history. Would you consider defending a Swastika display with a similar argument? I mean heck; the Nazis were only practicing their demented atrocity for what, a dozen years? Surely that’s no worse than 400 years of treating fellow humans as, well, slaves.
We have sex slaves and immigration slaves even today, and slavery was the norm through all of history, so I see that very few humans who have ever walked the Earth measure up to your standards. What you do is parade the prejudice of your time, insult all of your ancestors who had the temerity to believe something other than what you do.

Come to think of it, you do the same thing with your peers.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 09:01 pm
@Pemerson,
Quote:
The Confederate flag becomes a symbol of racism when someone (anyone) perceives it to be insulting to their race. Most people would then take the thing down. Wouldn't they?
Because some of us are darn tired of letting the victims decide what we do. Victims do not tend to be the best and the brightest amongst us. Following them blindly, giving them all the power, is stupid.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 09:11 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I do not think southerners need to be punished for the sins of their fathers anymore than I think Germans need to be punished for the sins of theirs. But they should stop short of celebrating their heinous history, which resulted in countless millions of human lives lost… not to mention the bloodiest war in this country’s history. Would you consider defending a Swastika display with a similar argument? I mean heck; the Nazis were only practicing their demented atrocity for what, a dozen years? Surely that’s no worse than 400 years of treating fellow humans as, well, slaves.
We have sex slaves and immigration slaves even today,
No we don't. A sick bastard like you might, but not one life worth perpetuating owns a slave today.

hawkeye10 wrote:
and slavery was the norm through all of history, so I see that very few humans who have ever walked the Earth measure up to your standards. What you do is parade the prejudice of your time, insult all of your ancestors who had the temerity to believe something other than what you do.
This is called argumentum ad antiquitatem, and it's fallacious nonsense. Recognizing human beings as human beings is not a passing fad, rather it's a matter of human decency that was widely recognized in Europe before this nation was established.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 26 May, 2010 09:23 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Apparently Setanta and Occum Bill are able to look into the souls of everyone who today use the confederate flag as a symbol and know that they do so because they are racists. Apparently they are even able to look into the souls of the the long dead and know that those who fought for the Confederacy did so for a racist ideal.


And . . .

Quote:
It doesn't really matter though because our friends have definitively answered the question, and any other discussion on the topic would just be dithering.


This is typical of the kind of bullshit which passes for logic and rhetoric at Finn's house--i expect nothing better, because he's basically just a turd stirrer. I said nothing remotely resembling a claim that everyone who displays this flag is a racist, nor that everyone who served the Confederate States was a racist. I have consistently said that that flag is the symbol of the Confederate States, which was a racist institution, created and maintained for a racist purpose. Given that the Confederate States instituted conscription even before Mr. Lincoln and the Congress did, it's a safe bet that there were many men who served in Confederate armies who were not necessarily supporters of the institution of slavery. It is entirely plausible that there are any number of yahoos out there today who display this flag without racist intent.

None of that changes the undeniable fact that that flag is a symbol of a racist institution. Therefore, the obvious answer to the titular question is yes, the Confederate flag is a racist symbol.
0 Replies
 
 

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