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Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of racism?

 
 
electronicmail
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 11:18 am
@plainoldme,
Quote:
you fail to see that you would impose your will upon others

That wasn't me who wrote that, it was Justice Scalia. Take it up with the Supreme Court, he was writing for the majority.

How is this not obvious to you?
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Sun 13 Jun, 2010 11:39 am
@OmSigDAVID,
David, you are joining email in attempting to re-write history, and in the process attempting to the wash the bloodstains of 400 years of heinous racism from that flag. Why? Do you really not know your history?

Let's examine an excerpt from the fam0us "Cornerstone Speech", given by the V.P. of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, shortly after the Confederacy was born... and see if what he had to say about race, shall we? Hell, at the risk of invoking Godwin's Law; see if you can honestly separate this guy's view of black people from Hitler's view of Jews. Are all men created equal?

Alexander Stephens wrote:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago. Those at the North, who still cling to these errors, with a zeal above knowledge, we justly denominate fanatics. All fanaticism springs from an aberration of the mind from a defect in reasoning. It is a species of insanity. One of the most striking characteristics of insanity, in many instances, is forming correct conclusions from fancied or erroneous premises; so with the anti-slavery fanatics. Their conclusions are right if their premises were. They assume that the negro is equal, and hence conclude that he is entitled to equal privileges and rights with the white man. If their premises were correct, their conclusions would be logical and just but their premise being wrong, their whole argument fails. I recollect once of having heard a gentleman from one of the northern States, of great power and ability, announce in the House of Representatives, with imposing effect, that we of the South would be compelled, ultimately, to yield upon this subject of slavery, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics, as it was in physics or mechanics. That the principle would ultimately prevail. That we, in maintaining slavery as it exists with us, were warring against a principle, a principle founded in nature, the principle of the equality of men. The reply I made to him was, that upon his own grounds, we should, ultimately, succeed, and that he and his associates, in this crusade against our institutions, would ultimately fail. The truth announced, that it was as impossible to war successfully against a principle in politics as it was in physics and mechanics, I admitted; but told him that it was he, and those acting with him, who were warring against a principle. They were attempting to make things equal which the Creator had made unequal.
This is the mentality the battle flag was conceived and flown in defense of.


Anyone interested in learning the truth can read the stated reasons for secession for themselves here: http://sunsite.utk.edu/civil-war/reasons.html READ them and then come back and tell me how their whining that Northern States won't cooperate in "returning their property"(human beings) is a "State's Rights" issue, rather than a human rights issue. Do you now agree with them that the racist's right to consider blacks their property in one state superseded the right to consider people people in another? Would you have then?

Few institutions in history were more repugnant to decency and human rights than the formation of the Confederate States and the symbols for same cannot be divorced from the racist institution they were created to symbolize. There is no honor in flying the confederate battle flag, any more than there is honor in flying a Nazi flag. Both are equally representative of heinous racism and should be scorned accordingly.








morell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 12:12 am
@OCCOM BILL,
Occom Bill Wrote:

Few institutions in history were more repugnant to decency and human rights than the formation of the Confederate States and the symbols for same cannot be divorced from the racist institution they were created to symbolize. There is no honor in flying the confederate battle flag, any more than there is honor in flying a Nazi flag. Both are equally representative of heinous racism and should be scorned accordingly.
*********************
As long as we are posing as saviors of humanity who abhor heinous racism(doesn't everyone) shouldn't we distribute the blame?

*******************************************************

Skip Gates blames Africans for slave trade
By William Easterly | Published April 23, 2010
…as well as Europeans.

…90 percent of those shipped to the New World were enslaved by Africans and then sold to European traders. The sad truth is that without complex business partnerships between African elites and European traders and commercial agents, the slave trade to the New World would have been impossible, at least on the scale it occurred.

Advocates of reparations for the descendants of those slaves generally ignore this untidy problem of the significant role that Africans played in the trade…

electronicmail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 05:06 am
@morell,
I read the Gates article when it was printed, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/opinion/23gates.html?pagewanted=2 but there's little point confusing Bill and Co. with facts. I'm still waiting for his explanation on why he likes any American flag except for the one that stands exclusively for States' rights. I'm reposting the question from the previous page in case he missed it:
Quote:

{quoting Bill:
" ...any early American Flag would serve your purpose better."}
Why's that? Many of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence kept slaves. Attendees to all constitutional conventions did too. You want to cancel 4th of July? Dump the constitution? Carry your reasoning to a conclusion before trashing the confederate flag.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 05:13 am
All constitutional conventions? How many do you allege took place? If you're referring to state conventions at various times, then you're in no position to argue that attendees at all of them included slave owners.

The point which you attempt to avoid by burying you head in the historical sand is that the Declaration of Independence, the flag of the United States and the Fourth of July are none of them symbols of a racist institution. The flag of the Confederate States is a symbol of a racist institution. The southern states did not secede nor threaten to secede over the tariff. The southern states did not secede nor threaten to secede over nullification. They only seceded, formed a confederacy (a clear violation of the constitution), kept troops and ships of war (a clear violation of the constitution) and made war on the United States without provocation, leading to a ruinous slaughter and their own downfall when Mr. Lincoln was elected. They only acted when they believed the institution of slavery might be threatened.

States rights my hairy red Irish ass. Don't make **** up.
electronicmail
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 07:37 am
@Setanta,
Hold details about your ass, I'm not interested. I know my own history and maybe you should learn it too before you zero in on any flag as a "symbol". The problems of slavery and states' rights didn't start with the confederacy, they go back not just to the start of the republic but to centuries before that. You heard of the convention in 1787? Get the damn date, 1787, not 1860:
Quote:
"The States have a right to an equality of representation. This is secured to us by our present articles of confederation; we are in possession of this privilege.".. On July 12 Oliver Ellsworth proposed that representation for the lower house be based on the number of free persons and three-fifths of "all other persons," a euphemism for slaves. In the following week the members finally compromised, agreeing that direct taxation be according to representation and that the representation of the lower house be based on the white inhabitants and three-fifths of the "other people."


I don't care if you're coming from the nazi-insignia-cum-burka school or from the hammer-and-sickle tradition, you don't like the Tea Party you don't have to join, but you have no right to make up **** to support fantasies of professional victims. Even Al Sharpton is better than that, and that's saying a whole lot.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 08:05 am
@electronicmail,
electronicmail wrote:

I read the Gates article when it was printed, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/23/opinion/23gates.html?pagewanted=2 but there's little point confusing Bill and Co. with facts. I'm still waiting for his explanation on why he likes any American flag except for the one that stands exclusively for States' rights. I'm reposting the question from the previous page in case he missed it:
Quote:

{quoting Bill:
" ...any early American Flag would serve your purpose better."}
Why's that? Many of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence kept slaves. Attendees to all constitutional conventions did too. You want to cancel 4th of July? Dump the constitution? Carry your reasoning to a conclusion before trashing the confederate flag.

Are you really that stupid? No one claimed the Confederacy caused slavery. The simple historic fact is that it was created in defense of slavery, hence their symbols were too. It doesn't matter how many Africans participated. It doesn't matter how many founding fathers had slaves. The 4th of July isn’t a celebration of slavery. None of these irrelevant distractions change the simple fact that the confederacy and it’s flag were created in defense of slavery. Your Tea Party looks more foolish every time you post with such willful ignorance. Focus... or shut the **** up already.
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 08:07 am
@Linkat,
Just a thought here: Though it has have become a symbol of racism for many, it didn't start that way. Much like the swastika which has been used for thousands of years by many cultures to represent different things.

Once "stamped" with a stigma, what it represents can drastically change. So, with this in mind, perhaps the better question might be: Is it a symbol of racism for you?

Thanks
plainoldme
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 08:12 am
@electronicmail,
Justice Scalia? What are you talking about? You did say that you want "our country back." That's imposing your will and your misconceptions on others.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 08:13 am
@Khethil,
Khethil wrote:

Just a thought here: Though it has have become a symbol of racism for many, it didn't start that way. Much like the swastika which has been used for thousands of years by many cultures to represent different things.

Once "stamped" with a stigma, what it represents can drastically change. So, with this in mind, perhaps the better question might be: Is it a symbol of racism for you?

Thanks
Please share what the battle flag was used for before becoming a symbol for Confederate Racism. You are correct about the Swastika, but it sounds like you're making an honest error about the battle flag. It has no history before being created in defense of heinous racism.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 08:17 am
@OCCOM BILL,
I have always thought that a lack of knowledge of history is a trait of the American right. Where they get their "facts" from is unknowable . . . yet . . .those same blind wanderers in the desert will write to those in the center to the left: You Drank The Kool-Aid. Kool-Aid is made, mixed and marketed by Madison Ave types hired by the Republican Party.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 08:20 am
@morell,
It's not true that the role Africans or Arabs or anyone else played is ignored. Furthermore, slavery existed throughout human history. Only in America was slavery clearly drawn along racial lines. BTW, there were Black Americans that owned slaves.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 08:26 am
@plainoldme,
I don't agree. Both Left and Right are populated by geniuses and fools alike. Political persuasion is no measure of intelligence or knowledge any more than religion is. Such assumptions are lazy.
0 Replies
 
Khethil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 08:34 am
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Please share what the battle flag was used for before becoming a symbol for Confederate Racism. You are correct about the Swastika, but it sounds like you're making an honest error about the battle flag. It has no history before being created in defense of heinous racism.


The swastika parallel illustrated is not identical in all aspects. They are similar in that a symbol used for one purpose, then made "popular" via a particular aspect of that which it ended up representing to many should not limit our representation to ONLY that.

That a large part of their legacy is racism in practice is not to say that therefore racism is the same as that attempt to make a separate nation, itself. Much in the same way as the U.S. Flag stands for the nation, if we use that argument we could say that it REALLY stood for Cheetos (since cheetos are consumed in the U.S.).

As a sidenote, I too can't help but look and instantly make that racist connection. But I think it's narrow minded to say that racism IS what it stands for. That many of us see it that way - have been acclimated to view it as such - is understandable, but it's also quite limiting.

Thanks
electronicmail
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:14 am
@OCCOM BILL,
Quote:
Please share what the battle flag was used for before ....

Today being National Flag Day you'd think you wouldn't be too lazy to make your own searches, but since you are I'll help you out with the history of the Battle Flag of the Confederacy:

The X on the flag is St. Andrew's cross and it was designed by Scotch-Irish Americans based on their own history of rebellion and resistance to oppression. For centuries it has represented freedom from tyrants and wasn't only flown by the rebellious Southern states in the 1860s but also flown in 1989 by Germans during the demolition of the Berlin Wall.

I'm proud of the Tea Party members who bring it to our rallies. Calling me or the Tea Party "stupid" for rebelling against a federal government ever-encroaching onto states' constitutional rights only shows your own ignorance and stupidity, and same goes for your self-proclaimed "educated" cohorts here.
OCCOM BILL
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:16 am
@Khethil,
While I certainly appreciate your honest candor, as well as your fair-minded attempt to make room for a battle-flag symbol that is somehow divorced from its incredibly racist origins; your example doesn't work. Neither the United States nor its flag were created in defense of Cheetos. Further, the idea of giving the Confederacy "Nation" status is an abomination not one country on the planet recognized. Look to my post above and read the Confederacy's own stated purpose. Take in the heartfelt specious beliefs of their spokesman again:
Alexander Stephens wrote:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.
This belief is the reason the Confederacy existed. And defending this heinous ideal for 4 years is the only history the "Confederacy" ever had.

The only reason that battle flag is less offensive than a Swastika is that racism against black people remains more socially acceptable than racism against Jewish people. Ignorance can be an excuse, only so long as a person hasn’t been exposed to the truth. Once faced with the simple truth, ignorance becomes willful ignorance and the good ole boy becomes the apologist for racism.
mysteryman
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:20 am
@plainoldme,
Yet, when reserarch is done that supports any position that a conservative takes, you and others immediately dismiss it or call it biased, racist, or whatever other buzzword of the day you want to use.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:21 am
@electronicmail,
Your response is a complete non-sequitur. Not only does it not address that bullshit of yours about more than one convention (there was only one), but it completely fails to address the undeniable fact that the Confederate States were formed to defend and preserve slavery--a racist institution.

You are long on bluster, short on either logic or historical knowledge.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:21 am
@electronicmail,
electronicmail wrote:
I'm proud of the Tea Party members who bring it to our rallies. Calling me or the Tea Party "stupid" for rebelling against a federal government ever-encroaching onto states' constitutional rights only shows your own ignorance and stupidity, and same goes for your self-proclaimed "educated" cohorts here.
Rolling Eyes Than you may as well let the Neo-Nazis in too, because the majority of Americans will never take a group displaying such willful ignorance seriously, no matter how good your ideas may be.

If you wish to be taken seriously, stop slapping a large minority of Americans in the face… or continue to wallow in irrelevance.
mysteryman
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Jun, 2010 10:24 am
@plainoldme,
And why are you worried about it at all?

You have already conceeded that conservatives were all slave owners, and that this country was founded on conservative principles.

So why are you worried about conservative ideals now?
0 Replies
 
 

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