Attempt To Blow Up US Passenger Jet

So you wish us not to take note of the fact that it is members of the Muslim community that are trying to bring down our jet liners!!!!!!!!

As far as I am aware no other members of any other religion group is declaring their wish to bring down our aircrafts on a whole scale bases and kill our citizens.

Oh, are we allow to take note if they paid in cash or have no luggage or any of the other factors that are sign of possible problems?

Only the fact that someone happen to be a young Muslim male should be overlook correct?

Death before being non-PC is your stand it would seem.

Oh so we should check someone who had paid for a background check to be done on themsleves to the same degree as those we who have not done so?

WHY?

We've already pointed out the answers to your questions. 1) It is virtually impossible to correctly assess who is Muslim. The last two airline attempts have been by non-Middle Easterners (one Caucasian from England, one African from Nigeria). 2) You would sweep up huge numbers of innocents depending on your classification system. 3) You would create publicly known blind spots in your system that could be exploited by terrorists. To this I would add that you would also create a backlash in Muslim countries that could lead to more terrorist recruiting. Despite its flaws, the US is still considered very tolerant of religion and this would fly in the face of that.

Your thoughts around searching people flying one way and paying cash make sense, but once those patterns become public, they are easily circumvented, meaning that once again you are spending money to create a false sense of security while taking your focus off the overall problem.

Before I give up my personal freedon to unlawful search, I would expect this govt to do everything in it's power to protect it's citizens. They have not.

Until they strictly enforce immigration laws and stop the bad guys from getting on planes, I refuse to accept a full body search as the best solution. When this govt starts profiling and keeping track of the bad guys, I refuse to accept full body search as the best alternative.

Until then, I will drive. I do not need to fly anywhere.

Very good just do not fly as no court is going to allow you to board a common carrier airliner without being search period end of subject.

Second note it may not indeed be to your liking but such searches are no illegal.

So if we do not know that they are Muslims then we an not factor that is so what?

If we do however know then it should indeed be part of the factors we take into account.

Second, if they are a citizens of a country where the overwhelming majority happen to be Muslims then there is zero wrong in assuming that they are likely to be Muslims.

No system is perfect that does not mean that because of that fact we should not used common sense.

If you search everyone equally, then you don't have a blind spot to exploit. If that costs too much money, then you have to sample, but do so randomly so that the bad guys are always guessing. That gives you optimum coverage and protection. What you advocate doesn't do that since it provides a map for terrorists to use to bypass security.

You screen everyone with a primary screening then if you have a question for any reason you go to a secondary screening.

It might be far more PC to select for secondary screening at random but it make no sense at all to do so if you have reasons to place part of the group in a higher risk sub-group.

Second note this is part of the system that the one country that is at higher risk of terrorists attack then we are used.

The Israel system seem to work damn well and have a perfect safety record as far as I know.

The shoe bomber in fact first look into attacking them but he bounce off their security.

A spokesman for El Al said: "I can confirm that the alleged shoe bomber flew to Israel in July of this year on El Al. Before check-in he went through a security check."

Security personnel considered Reid a high risk and checked his luggage, his person and his shoes before he was allowed to board the aircraft.

El Al aircraft routinely have armed marshals aboard to tackle any would-be hijackers. In addition, passengers travelling on El Al and those leaving from Tel-Aviv airport on other airlines have been liable for several months to have their shoes checked.

Security personnel X-ray baggage belonging to non-Jewish Israelis and other passengers considered suspect, and remove footwear, which is taken to a special machine to check for hidden explosives.

Airport staff refused to say at what stage Israeli security was alerted to the danger of explosive footwear.

Reid was understood to have spent a week in Israel before leaving via the Palestinian-ruled Gaza Strip for Egypt.

Let be honest here you and others here are willing to place our citizens at added risk of death to be PC.

Yes the pay in cash had been a known factor for security to look at for decades and yet this last gentleman did pay in cash.

When terrorist are dumb enough to do such stupid things your position is that we should overlook such and refused to do added screening and this somehow in some strange way is going to add to our overall security?

As I said the most hated airline by middle east terrorists is also the safety airline to fly and they do not achieve that degree of safety by using your PC methods.

Let's be honest here. There are clear reasons why your proposal to increase scrutiny on "young Muslim men" won't work. I've laid them out on previous posts. But because you are on the "pc" kick, you won't entertain them or discuss their merits. The fact that your proposal would not have detected the latest bombing suspect makes your insistence on it all the more confusing. Targeting "suspicious behavior" makes a lot of sense as I've posted earlier, but once the definition of suspicious behavior becomes common knowledge, you have lost that advantage as well. The current system of random checks as well as somewhat increased scrutiny on everyone plus document checks, explosive sniffing dogs roaming the airports and a well informed flying public aware of their surroundings is a great gauntlet to make terrorists go through since there is no clear signature to the search pattern that they can use to bypass it. Why are you proposing to weaken that system?

Their policy could be considered unconstitutional.

Article the sixth [Amendment IV]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


I recognize you are willing to submit to these types of searches because you THINK it makes you safe.

Let 's hire some people from El Al Airlines;
thay NEVER have any trouble.

I don 't know, but I suspect
that we shoud emulate whatever thay r doing.




Also, the Japs r extremely thorough in searching passengers.
Thay don t fool around; thay r very serious about it.

The first step is a question: " May I search u ? "
The correct answer is YES, if u wanna get on that plane.

The next step is a very slow and meticulously careful hand search,
however, thay don 't go under your clothes,
so Umar 's combustible substance probably woud have been undetected.





David

Sorry but you are full of nonsense as not all or even most terrorists are all that bright.

Your logic is that if some method will not work for a master terrorist it is not usefull and that once more is nonsense.

Once more the last man pay in cash one way and this had been a known red flag forever. Hell there are reports that he did not have his passport along with him and yet he got on the plane somehow.

The first World Trade Center bombing the one terrorist try to get his deposit back by claiming that the bomb truck had been stolen!!!!!!!!!!

Your master terrorist is not all that common and by looking for stupid behavior you have one hell of a good chance of catching most of them.

Hell even the best of the best as in the 911 flyers had a member told the flight school that he was not concern about learning to land the plane!!!!!

No system is perfect but looking for people who by their behaviors call attention to themselves will always be useful to say the least.

Humans do stupid things and they tend to do more such when they are under stress.

Sorry waiyo no one is coming into your home and searching you.

You are trying to board a common carrier in a public place of your own free will and the searches in order to do so is not illegal in any manner.

So keep driving by the airport.

I don't have a problem with monitoring people who exhibit suspicious behavior (like paying cash, not carrying luggage or buying one way tickets.) The issue I have is with your proposal that we screen all "young Muslim men" preferentially. I asked how you would identify such men; you haven't answered. I've mentioned how "master" terrorists can use the holes you open in the system you set up to catch dumb terrorists; no response. The reality is that you design a system to catch the "master terrorists." The ones that are not "all that bright" catch themselves by doing stupid things. Is it possible that a dumb terrorist will score anyway? Sure, but I'd rather focus my energy on the smart ones.

The idea of screening people because of skin color is
a) not politically correct
b) not legal in the United States
c) not effective

You are focused on (a) when (b) and (c) should make this a non-starter.

I do appreciate your restraint here. Others have been more candid in their thoughts.

When someone is coming from a country that is 90 percent Muslim treating such as Muslims mean that you are correct 90 percent or more of the time!

Simple when a overwhelming majority of the Middle Eastern countries are mostly Muslims to ID their citizens as very very likely to be Muslims.

Nothing is perfect but a 90 percent or so correct rate is more then good enough to justifly added screening resources.

So your proposal is to institute intensive screening on planes flying to the US from certain countries because they are high risk countries? We already do that. That's clearly not the same as screening young Muslim men.

.

It is one and the same thing as the reason they are high risk is because of the population of young Muslims men.

Figures indicated below are based on the demographic study by the Pew Research Center report of Mapping the Global Muslim Population, as of 8 October, 2009.[1][2]

Country/Region Muslim population
(2009 est.) Muslim percentage (%) of total
population Percentage (%) of World Muslim
population
Afghanistan 28,072,000 99.7 1.8
Albania 2,522,000 79.9 0.2
Algeria 34,199,000 98.0 2.2
Bangladesh 145,312,000 89.6 9.3
Comoros 664,000 98.3 0

Egypt 78,513,000 94.6 5.0
Gambia 1,625,000 95 0.1
Iran 73,777,000 99.4 4.7
Iraq 30,428,000 99 2
Libya 6,203,000 96.6 0.4
Mauritania 3,261,000 99.1 0.2
Niger 15,075,000 98.6 1.0
Nigeria 78,056,000 50.4 5.0
Oman 2,494,000 87.7 0.2
Pakistan 174,082,000 96.3 11.1
Republic of Congo 59,000 1.6 0
Saudi Arabia 24,949,000 97 2
Senegal 12,028,000 96.0 0.8
Somalia 8,995,000 98.5 0.6
Syria 20,196,000 92.2 1.3
Tunisia 10,216,000 99.5 0.7
Turkey 73,619,000 98 4.7
Turkmenistan 4,757,000 93.1 0.3
United Arab Emirates 3,504,000 76.2 0.2
Western Sahara 510,000 99.4 0