20
   

Amanda Knox

 
 
JTT
 
  0  
Tue 4 Oct, 2011 07:00 pm
@ossobuco,
Quote:
So I get to do a bunch of thumb down.


If you get tired of that, there is always that All-American Ignore that you can play with, Osso.
McTag
 
  2  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 01:56 am
@JTT,

Quite an interesting piece in the New York Times today.

Ms Knox is being kept away from the news media why? Unanswered questions?
I think there's a lot of image-building going on. And I think Ms Knox knows more than she's said up to now.
contrex
 
  1  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 04:54 am
I still think she's guilty. She got off because the Italian police screwed up. I don't like her at all.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 05:17 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


Quite an interesting piece in the New York Times today.

Ms Knox is being kept away from the news media why? Unanswered questions?
I think there's a lot of image-building going on. And I think Ms Knox knows more than she's said up to now.


You did not give a link. Is it this story, McTag?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/05/world/europe/amanda-knox-freed-after-appeal-in-italian-court.html?_r=1

EXCERPT:
Quote:
For the dead woman’s family, the appeals verdict brought no comfort. “It feels very much as though we are back to Square 1,” Lyle Kercher, her brother, said at a news conference in Perugia on Tuesday. He said he could not understand how a ruling that “was so certain two years ago has been so emphatically overturned now. It obviously raises further questions.”

One of those questions is about Rudy Guede, who in 2008 received a 30-year sentence for sexual assault and aiding and abetting murder in Ms. Kercher’s death, though the sentence was reduced to 16 years on appeal. Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito were never named in the ruling, which said only that he had aided unknown “others” in the crime.

“The courts agree that he wasn’t acting alone,” Mr. Kercher said. “If the two people released really were not guilty, we are left wondering what really happened.”

The police arrested Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito on Nov. 6, 2007, five days after Ms. Kercher’s naked and bloody body was found in the apartment she shared with Ms. Knox. In December 2009, Ms. Knox was sentenced to 26 years and Mr. Sollecito to 25 for the crime, which prosecutors said was a case of rough sex that got violent.

The lower court’s reasoning ran to nearly 500 pages, but it presented only a circumstantial account of the events leading to Ms. Kercher’s murder, and did not ascribe a motive to her attackers. During the appeal, court-appointed experts determined that some DNA evidence on which prosecutors had based the original case was unreliable.

With so many unknowns, the case “wasn’t a victory” for the Italian justice system, the jurist Carlo Federico Grosso wrote in a commentary in the Turin daily La Stampa on Tuesday. Instead, he added: “Faced with the lack of sufficient evidence, the judges inexorably but correctly had to reach their conclusion. But this is an acquittal that leaves a bitter taste in the mouth.”

Back in Perugia, residents said the trial had tainted their town. Monia Montagnini, who teaches Chinese here, said that the image that had emerged of Perugia as a den of iniquity “just isn’t true. In fact, it’s quite dull here.”


I agree with the Kercher family that more than one person was involved in their daughter's murder. The railroading of Knox and Sollecito was wrong, however. I do hope that the Kercher family finds answers.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 06:07 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
This is too bad, I was interested in talking.


Laughing

NOT!
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 06:08 am
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
Ms Knox is being kept away from the news media why?


Sheesh! What exactly caused you to lose your humanity?



McTag wrote:
And I think Ms Knox knows more than she's said up to now.


The evidence has been clear from the beginning that she and Raffaele had nothing to do with it.

And we all know what happened between Guede and Meredith already. There aren't any unanswered questions left.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 06:09 am
@contrex,
contrex wrote:
I still think she's guilty. She got off because the Italian police screwed up. I don't like her at all.


That's because you are evil.

Better step up that austerity. The European Court of Human Rights is going to make you give all your cash to Amanda and Raffaele.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 06:10 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
I agree with the Kercher family that more than one person was involved in their daughter's murder.


All the other times Guede broke in through windows while carrying a large knife, he was completely alone.

And while there is a lot of evidence of Guede, there is no evidence of anyone else having been involved with the crime.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 07:28 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
McTag wrote:


Wow. Talk about a dishonest article. Who wrote that tripe?

Oh. Never mind. Just went back to see after I asked the question. It was written by one of the guilter book authors who's about to be sued for libel.

Hope he has his assets in liquid form so they can be efficiently transferred into Amanda and Raffale's bank accounts.



I've been weighing "the harm caused by my quoting the tripe" verses "the benefit of my providing the tripe with a rebuttal".

I guess I'll risk quoting it so I can rebut it:



Quote:
1. Reasonable doubt
Amanda Knox's lawyers managed to instil reasonable doubt in the jurors' minds over the quality of testing of the bra clasp belonging to Meredith Kercher - which it was claimed had Raffaele Sollecito's DNA on it - and the knife that prosecutors argued was the murder weapon. The prosecution maintained Knox's DNA was on the handle of the kitchen knife, with Ms Kercher's DNA on the blade. The defence claimed that the amount of Meredith Kercher's DNA on the blade was too small to test. An independent review disputed the prosecution's claims.


It was clear from the beginning that the DNA tests for both the knife and the bra clasp were fraudulent. It was also pretty clear that the DNA on the bra clasp had been planted by the Italian Police.

It was also clear that the knife was never the murder weapon, as it was too large to have made any of Meredith's wounds, and was larger than the bloody outline of the murder weapon left when the killer set it down.

Saying "the defense claimed the DNA on the knife blade was too small to test" is wildly inaccurate. The DNA on the knife blade was never there to begin with.

And proving that the DNA tests were fraudulent, and that the Italian Police planted the DNA on the clasp, is a bit more than "instilling reasonable doubt".



Quote:
2. Crime scene errors
A few police crime scene errors, such as contaminated samples, lost evidence and disputed procedures, were successfully portrayed as generalised incompetence. An independent review raised doubt over the attribution of some of the DNA traces, which were collected from the crime scene 46 days after the murder.


It wasn't a few crime scene errors. It was in fact generalized bumbling incompetence through and through, along with a generous dose of Italian-style corruption.

The DNA mentioned there was the bra clasp. As I already noted, the Italian Police planted the DNA, and then the lab faked the test results as well.



Quote:
3. Lack of proof
There was no convincing proof that Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito were actually in the room when Meredith Kercher died. Even the presence of Amanda Knox's blood and footprints in the house were successfully explained away. Her defence claimed that Knox's blood could have been there because she was a resident at the farm house on Pergola Road. The evidence of Rudy Guede against Knox was also confusing. Guede, who is serving a prison sentence for sexual assault and murder, said that he heard her voice at the scene but didn't see her face.


"No convincing proof" is pretty disingenuous. There was nothing that would even suggest they were there.

The only blood from Amanda was a single drop of blood that had zero connection to the murder. It was not so much explained away as it was never even considered incriminating to begin with.

The claim that footprints from Amanda or Raffaele were there, is a lie. The alleged "explaining away" was simply pointing out that their footprints were not there in the first place.



Quote:
4. Motive
There was no credible motive for the murder. The prosecution stuck doggedly to the sex-game-gone-wrong explanation even though their own medical examiner said there was no evidence of rape in the days following the murder. An alternative motive, involving robbery, gained traction as the case rolled on, based on the unexplained disappearance of Meredith Kercher's 200 euro rent money.


Actually, the robbery thing was clear from the start. However, only Guede was involved in the robbery.

No evidence of rape? Guede's skin DNA was found in Meredith's vagina. And there was also a semen stain underneath her corpse.

I'm pretty sure that if the semen stain were tested for DNA, it would match Guede. It hasn't yet occurred to the Italians to test it though.



Quote:
5. Unreliable witness

One of the key witnesses at the original trial, a homeless man called Antonio Curatolo, publicly admitted to being a heroin addict, undermining his observations that he saw Knox acting suspiciously by the scene of the crime on the night of the murder in November 2007.


Actually, the fact that the supposed witnesses only came forward long after the crime, and testified to things contradicted by actual evidence, means that they never had credibility to begin with.

As for the heroin addict, he testified that he saw them the day before the murder. He is "missing" the actual day of the murder. To him it is like time skipped a day.



Quote:
6. Character
Knox claimed that some of the evidence put forward against her - stories about her strange behaviour after she was arrested and the prosecution's focus on her sexuality - was no more than an attempt to demonise her to cover up for a weak case.


It is dishonest to refer to lies about Amanda's behavior as "evidence".

And yes, the Italians were lying about Amanda's behavior.



Quote:
7. PR campaign
Knox's family hired a Seattle public relations specialist, David Marriot, who for months repeatedly plugged the line: "Amanda will get out, it's a done deal." This created a self-propagating media frenzy, which - in the end - helped convince a largely sceptical Italian media.


Italy was expecting that they could just lie about innocent people and no one would fight back with the truth I guess.



Quote:
8. Supporters' presence
The massive presence of friends and family in Perugia in support fuelled the "Amanda is innocent" campaign. Italians have claimed that because Knox is American, the case has been handled differently, so as not to offend the US.


I'm sure that when Italians frame one of their fellow citizens, the outcome is usually much less favorable.

But that just shows how truly despicable Italy is.



Quote:
9. Appeals process
The Italian appeals process offers more guarantees to defendants than any other legal system in the world, whereby only the weakest evidence is treated, not the whole case. Knox's team only had to attack the DNA evidence against her to undermine the whole edifice of the original trial. Italy has one of lowest prison populations in the world because of its lenient appeals process.


The DNA evidence was focused on because it was the strongest evidence, not the weakest evidence.

Yes, being fake evidence, it was pretty weak. But all the other fake evidence was even weaker yet.

And the defense did not select just the DNA to attack. The defense attacked all the fake evidence. It was the judges who elected to only test the strongest of the fake evidence.



Quote:
10. Favourable political climate
Silvio Berlusconi's government vowed to tame his country's fiercely independent system of magistrates - one that had been bolstered to fight the mafia. The more the government shows the magistracy to be incompetent the better for Mr Berlusconi. The ministry of justice is poised to investigate what went wrong.


I get the sense that Berlusconi is corrupt and is bad for Italy.

If this case rebounds by making Berlusconi stronger, to Italy's detriment, that would be awesome.

Italy deserves Berlusconi, and I hope they get what they deserve.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 02:57 pm
@wandeljw,
I agree with you on that, JWand, and would go so far as to say I still don't know if Knox and Sollecito were involved or were somehow stoned innocents elsewhere (I haven't read the early stories lately) - but it is reasonable that they were acquitted.

I agree with the family that Meredith has been left out of the concern of the press of various countries.

I'm also bummed for Perugia, a place I like. But Perugia's lived through many centuries and lots of concomitant history, with bloody history too, so it'll get along. It's not a prime tourist destination - just an interesting place - anyway.

One of my Perugia memories is of a banana stand on one of the main streets, one october day, what a sunny thing that was to see... seeing that just before standing right in front of a Rafael painting in the national gallery there, not many others in the large room.

I've an architect pal who studied there for a while during his training days - I should email him for his take. I presume he'd do a virtual eye role.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 03:30 pm
@ossobuco,
Perugia seems to be a quiet town. Is that true, osso? Their police probably don't have much experience investigating murder.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 03:47 pm
@wandeljw,
Well, it sure was when I was there. Like most italian old towns, there is the old town part of the city - we have that here in the u.s. too, as in albuquerque - but there, it's pretty starkly geographic. Lucca, a place I love a lot, has this giant wall around the old town, and much development outside of the walls where most of the population live. In Perugia's case, the old town is very high, very steep to get up there. I remember the bus ride. Tilt! Perugia in history has had plenty of murders. Recently, I doubt that very much, compared to other places. There is a writer, american if I remember, yet another expat type, that writes police procedurals set around there, no link from me just now. I cited a couple of her books on the what are you reading now thread, but I forget the author's name right now.

I cited the italian police procedural writer I do listen to earlier in this thread,
Gianrico Carafiglio.

The fly in this situation - to me - is how the prosecutor Mignini got this case: he was a known fool, from my past reading. And no, I'm not going to look up my past reading.
McTag
 
  2  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 04:30 pm
@ossobuco,

Mignini the prosecutor seem to be dangerously unhinged.
He should never have been allowed within 100 miles of this case.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/oct/04/knox-acquittal-only-possible-verdict
aidan
 
  1  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 05:05 pm
@contrex,
Quote:
I still think she's guilty. She got off because the Italian police screwed up. I don't like her at all.


I still think she's guilty too - and I guess that means her boyfriend probably also had something to do with it.
They both told too many lies and changed their initial stories too totally to seem at all innocent or credible.
And I just don't buy her (their) explanation for why they HAD to lie.
One minute they put themselves at the scene and the next they're somewhere else doing something that the evidence just doesn't support.

ossobuco
 
  2  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 06:47 pm
@McTag,
I read negs about him several years ago, way before all this, and I'm just a reader from far away, albeit rather interested in Italy.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 08:09 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
I agree with you on that, JWand


All the other times Guede broke in through windows while carrying a large knife, he was completely alone.

And while there is a lot of evidence of Guede's involvement, there is no evidence of anyone else having been involved with the crime.



ossobuco wrote:
and would go so far as to say I still don't know if Knox and Sollecito were involved or were somehow stoned innocents elsewhere (I haven't read the early stories lately) - but it is reasonable that they were acquitted.


The evidence has been clear from the beginning that they are innocent.

No amount of your sleazy dishonesty can ever change that.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 08:10 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
Mignini the prosecutor seem to be dangerously unhinged.
He should never have been allowed within 100 miles of this case.


Well, he does have a few screws loose. I don't see him as the primary villain in this case though.

He didn't force judges to order Amanda and Raffaele to stay in prison through this trial process even though that violates both Italian and European law.

He didn't force the judges in the first trial to block the defense from challenging fake evidence.

He didn't force the Italian Police to concoct fake evidence against innocent people.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Wed 5 Oct, 2011 08:20 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
I still think she's guilty too - and I guess that means her boyfriend probably also had something to do with it.


The evidence has been clear from the beginning that Amanda and Raffaele are both innocent.

Do you have any particular reason for ignoring the evidence and impugning the innocent?



At least you guys are causing an awesome Karma backlash with all the suffering you've caused the innocent.

This quest to blame innocent people has earned the guy who raped and murdered Meredith a couple huge sentence reductions. First from LIFE to 30 years, and then from 30 to 16 years. And it may even result in his sentence being overturned completely. Even if it isn't completely overturned, he'll get day release parole in just 4 years now, with full release only 8 years away.

(He says thanks, BTW. He's glad he doesn't face a life sentence anymore.)



aidan wrote:
They both told too many lies and changed their initial stories too totally to seem at all innocent or credible.


The ONLY time either of them changed their story was when the Italian Police were beating false statements out of them.

And neither of them ever lied even once. Note that a lie requires intent, and when someone is being forced to say something against their will, there is no such intent.



aidan wrote:
And I just don't buy her (their) explanation for why they HAD to lie.


So it's all right for the police to beat false statements out of innocent people?



aidan wrote:
One minute they put themselves at the scene and the next they're somewhere else doing something that the evidence just doesn't support.


The only time they put themselves at the scene is when the Italian Police were forcing them to say it by hitting them in the head.

And the evidence fully supports their claim that they spent the night together at his place.
contrex
 
  1  
Thu 6 Oct, 2011 04:02 am
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
There is a writer, american if I remember, yet another expat type, that writes police procedurals set around there, no link from me just now. I cited a couple of her books on the what are you reading now thread, but I forget the author's name right now.


Donna Leon? I read the first 8 or so of her Guido Brunetti books but then I kept having a kind of "I've been here before" feeling...

McTag
 
  1  
Thu 6 Oct, 2011 08:04 am
@contrex,

We enjoy Michael Dibdin- the Aurelio Zen series.
0 Replies
 
 

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