20
   

Amanda Knox

 
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 08:51 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Given the fact that her changing story and the implication of the innocent man were both the result of the police hitting her until she said what they wanted her to say, I think it is rather a stretch to blame her for either.


Her story about being smacked on the back of the head by police isn't something I think explains her story at all or forgives her implication of an innocent man.

Edit: and Sollecito claimed to have surfed the net from his house that night, but his ISP reports no activity. They both have at least lied about their activities that night.
ossobuco
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 09:02 pm
@Robert Gentel,
that is my take too.

Trouble was, some part of the beginning changing - wild changing - of stories was not admissible.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Dec, 2009 09:11 pm
The innocent man she implicated was her boss. The police suggested that person to her because she had sent him a text message that was ambiguous (her Italian was not idiomatically correct). Knox had been living in Italy for only two months. The police interrogated her without an attorney and without a translator. She testified that a policewoman lightly slapped her on the back of the head several times. Intentionally or unitentionally, police often ask questions that suggest a preferred answer. A person under stress will be very suggestible.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 02:30 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Given the fact that her changing story and the implication of the innocent man were both the result of the police hitting her until she said what they wanted her to say, I think it is rather a stretch to blame her for either.


Her story about being smacked on the back of the head by police isn't something I think explains her story at all or forgives her implication of an innocent man.


It does though. She was clearly coerced by the police, and that explains her story completely.

And I can't imagine blaming the victim for the fact the police forced them to do something. How about blaming the police for it?

On the other hand, I'd like to thank you guys for this thread. Compared to the horrific things that are being said on other websites, the reasoned debate here reminds me of the reason I grew to love A2K in the first place.
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 02:45 am
@oralloy,
Reading the coverage of this story in the news over here, there seemed little doubt (to me) but that she is guilty.

I wasn't even aware, until the verdict when I began reading on the internet about the qualms around the fairness of her trial, that there was any real doubt.

The aspect that is emphasized in the press here is the fear and confusion the victim (Meredith Kertcher) repeatedly expressed to her parents about her roommate's behavior, which she felt threatened by. She told her parents that she felt unsafe living in the flat with Amanda Knox because she was constantly bringing strange men to stay there, and she had no way of preventing her from doing that or being exposed to these men herself.
It was reported that there was an intense and outwardly expressed hatred and enmity that developed between these two girls because of their disagreements over this. And apparently the relationship soured almost immediately because one of the first things Amanda told Meredith (who then told her mom and Dad) was that she (Amanda) had had sex with a stranger on the train on her way there.

There were also a lot of drugs involved and found in the systems of the three people who were there and accused - or at least that's what's been reported here.

CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 02:42 pm
@aidan,
aidan, do you have a link to this story?
I have looked through a lot of European online news, including British ones (BBC) and could not find anything to substantiate that Meredith Kertcher has told her parents that she feared Knox and was threatened by her behavior.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 02:50 pm
@CalamityJane,
I'll try to find it - I either read it Saturday (which is the day I buy the Guardian) or Sunday (which is the day I buy the Times)...I might still have the copy of the paper - I haven't done my recycling yet- if I can't find it - I'll try to find it online.

I hope I didn't watch it on tv news - which is a possibility- I might have as I have a very strong visual memory of Meredith Kircher's mom crying and speaking. I'll try to find it.
Anyway - I do know one thing though- I didn't make it up. I remember specifically the parents speaking of Meredith's issues with Amanda and that the relationship had deteriorated into 'outward hostility and the word 'hatred' was used.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 02:53 pm
@aidan,
Thank you! No I am not suggesting you made it up, I think it would be a
major blow to Amanda Knox if indeed Meredith was afraid of her and stated so to her parents. I am just curious why it wasn't picked up by most papers... especially here in the United States.
aidan
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 02:56 pm
@CalamityJane,
Well, like I said - that's been one of the most interesting things to me. The coverage here was TOTALLY different from what I've been seeing coming from the US. I watched the 48 hour thing that was on Youtube tonight just to get the gist of what was happening over there and they might as well have been talking about a different case and a different girl given how it was presented over here.
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 03:12 pm
@aidan,
The German press emphasizes more on how the Italians see Amanda: a beautiful girl with angelic face and ice cold eyes and that she was portrayed
as a promiscuous girl, who was into partying, drugs and man. However, the
German paper "Der Spiegel" reported that the Italians opted for "when in doubt then be against the accused" whereas in reality, there shouldn't have been a conviction based on the evidence alone as it wasn't enough to convict.

In conclusion "Der Spiegel" said that Amanda would not have been convicted
in Germany and probably the United States. In Germany/USA it is not possible
to " publicly execute someone by sheer speculations alone" (so the paper).
0 Replies
 
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 03:36 pm

She and Sollecito interfered with the crime scene and tried to mislead the police.

I don't know what she's guilty of, but she's not totally innocent.
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 04:08 pm
@CalamityJane,
Actually - I didn't say she was afraid of Amanda Knox - I said that she told people that she felt threatened by Amanda's practice of bringing strange men to the house.

This is one of the articles I found in which I read about the deteriorating relationship between the girls. I think it must have been on the news or in a more local paper (or maybe the guardian) where I read something about her stating her concerns about Amanda's habits to her parents .

Quote:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6945967.ece
Even now there are many gaps in the story but, after the guilty verdicts, the events that led to the murder of Kercher on November 1, 2007, can be pieced together.

IT WAS the foreigner’s “Italian dream” that brought victim and killer together. Both Kercher, from Coulsdon, Surrey, and Knox, from Seattle, in America’s northwest, were embarking on a year abroad to improve their Italian, which they were studying as part of their degrees.

They chose Perugia, which was popular among overseas students as a small but vibrant walled city in Umbria with a large population of fellow undergraduates. Both enrolled at its University for Foreigners.

In the summer of 2007 Kercher and two other girls were already living at the whitewashed cottage with views of rolling hills and cypress trees when Knox moved in. At first, the two women were friendly.

Kercher, reading politics and language at Leeds University, introduced Knox, a gifted, Jesuit-educated student, to her English friends, showed her where to shop and toured a chocolate festival with her.

But the relationship soon soured. Kercher, a cheerful and hard-working young woman, had budding reservations about her flatmate. According to friends, she grew more and more exasperated by Knox’s behaviour " she failed to flush the toilet, kept strumming the same chord on her guitar, and brought “strange men” to the cottage.

Indeed, it appears that it was Knox’s sex life that really drove a wedge between the women.

Knox’s sexuality featured heavily in the prosecution case, illuminated by a diary entry in which she listed seven partners, three of whom she slept with after her arrival in Italy (the list excluded Sollecito). Among them was a man she met and had sex with on the train on her way to Perugia. On Facebook, she put down as her interests “men”.

Kercher had already remarked to her father that “Amanda arrived only a week ago and she already has a boyfriend”. Later she told friends that she was shocked to see Knox leave a beauty case with a vibrator and condoms in open view in the bathroom.

We do not know what comments passed between the women, but the prosecution argued that Kercher’s criticism of Knox’s sex life " whether perceived or direct " helped spark in the American a deep hatred of her flatmate, which eventually led to her murder.

This was in today's Times
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article6947979.ece

so there's a little backtracking going on.


oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 09:47 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
The aspect that is emphasized in the press here is the fear and confusion the victim (Meredith Kertcher) repeatedly expressed to her parents about her roommate's behavior, which she felt threatened by. She told her parents that she felt unsafe living in the flat with Amanda Knox because she was constantly bringing strange men to stay there, and she had no way of preventing her from doing that or being exposed to these men herself.


Guede claims that Kercher invited him back to the apartment:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2937144.ece

And I think the forensic evidence said she and he had consensual sex.

According to his version of events, they met a couple times before, so it wasn't like he was a complete stranger, but it also isn't like they really knew each other well when she invited him back.

So if she had a great aversion to inviting men back to the apartment, she might have been getting over it.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 09:55 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
She and Sollecito interfered with the crime scene and tried to mislead the police.

I don't know what she's guilty of, but she's not totally innocent.


I'm not aware of any evidence that anyone interfered with the crime scene.

Is this alleged "misleading of the police" the event where the police kept hitting her until she said what they wanted to hear?
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Dec, 2009 10:25 pm
@aidan,
Yes, I did read that both girls had different philosophies towards men and
sexuality. If Meredith would have been bothered to that extend, why didn't
she asked Amanda to leave?
The Italian papers reported that Meredith was even more popular than Amanda and there might have been some jealousy between them. It really seems that
Meredith was portrayed as the innocent convent scholar whereas Amanda was
the promiscuous devil.
Still, aside from the character assassination, there wasn't enough evidence
to convict either one - Amanda or Sollecito.

Guede had consensual sex with Meredith, respectively the examiner could
not conclude that it was rape.
0 Replies
 
aidan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 12:45 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Guede claims that Kercher invited him back to the apartment:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2937144.ece

And I think the forensic evidence said she and he had consensual sex
.
Well, he would, wouldn't he seeing that someone definitely let him in the apartment,and it'd look better for him if he said she said they could have sex than if he admitted he raped her. But there was evidence of sexual assault. At least that's what I read. There was also missing money.

Quote:
According to his version of events, they met a couple times before, so it wasn't like he was a complete stranger, but it also isn't like they really knew each other well when she invited him back.

What I read said that he was a regular visitor to the flat downstairs - where he hung out and smoked with the kids who lived there.

Quote:
So if she had a great aversion to inviting men back to the apartment, she might have been getting over it
.

I didn't say she had an aversion to inviting men back to the apartment. I said she said she was concerned about being in a situation in which she couldn't control who came and went in her space. It happens all the time. I was roommates my freshman year in college with a girl who, from the first night we were there, had guys neither of us had ever met befor, sleeping in her bed in our room about eight feet away from my bed. I had no control over it and it made me feel embarrassed, unsafe, and vulnerable. I moved out within a week. I understand the feelings this VICTIM was expressing.

And apparently she did express her concerns to her roommate, because there was discord and actual 'hatred' in their relationship - it is reported.

Even if you watch the 48 hours version - the tall American black guy who was another student there and continues to live there says, 'The Amanda Knox we met in Italy was very, very different from the Amanda Knox that was described at home. Somewhere between her home and here, she changed.'
That also is very common. And the investigator who says, 'What honor student would kill someone?' sort of gives his bias away.
Drugs make ordinary people do things they would otherwise never do.
They kept editing his stuff before he could finish his thoughts.
That's my point. What's being presented in America is totally different from what's being presented in England (where the victim is from) and Italy (where it happened).
Obviously there's a lot of editorializing going on.
That's my main point.

But, although I guess no one can be sure, my gut feeling is that she's involved in some way. How could you listen to your roommate screaming in the middle of the night and not open the door to look in and check on her until the police break it down the next afternoon? And why would the Italian police railroad this girl like this? And if it was only anti-American sentiment - why would they string up on of their own (Amanda's boyfriend) in the same way?
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 06:43 am
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
And apparently she did express her concerns to her roommate, because there was discord and actual 'hatred' in their relationship - it is reported.


Yes. So it is "reported".....

Given the all the egregious reporting (like blaming Amanda for the handstand after the police asked her to do it), I think it's safe to discount all anti-Amanda reporting.




aidan wrote:
And why would the Italian police railroad this girl like this?


Because they're police. That's what police do. They just find the nearest person and try to hammer on the shape of the evidence until it fits them. If they can't bend the evidence enough to fit their first target, they move on to the next target and start over again.

That's why the Italian police first coerced Amanda into implicating the innocent bartender by hitting her until she went along with it. They had targeted the bartender and were not going to accept anything that didn't implicate him.
McTag
 
  3  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 10:40 am
@oralloy,

Quote:
McTag wrote:
She and Sollecito interfered with the crime scene and tried to mislead the police.

I don't know what she's guilty of, but she's not totally innocent.

I'm not aware of any evidence that anyone interfered with the crime scene.

Is this alleged "misleading of the police" the event where the police kept hitting her until she said what they wanted to hear?


The door was locked, and not forced, so they broke a window to make it look like the perp had come in by that route.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 01:11 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:


Quote:
McTag wrote:
She and Sollecito interfered with the crime scene and tried to mislead the police.

I don't know what she's guilty of, but she's not totally innocent.

I'm not aware of any evidence that anyone interfered with the crime scene.

Is this alleged "misleading of the police" the event where the police kept hitting her until she said what they wanted to hear?


The door was locked, and not forced, so they broke a window to make it look like the perp had come in by that route.


Given the severe misconduct that Italy engaged in during the rest of this case, most likely the break in was genuine and Italy pretended it was staged in order to set up Knox.
McTag
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 01:58 pm
@oralloy,

I suppose that could be so.

Did you work on the OJ Simpson case?
 

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