20
   

Amanda Knox

 
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 05:47 pm
@McTag,
McTag wrote:
I suppose that could be so.

Did you work on the OJ Simpson case?


This girl is quite obviously innocent. Please don't compare her to OJ.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 06:11 pm
I came into this thread with no opinion. I tend now to believe she is in some wise involved in it.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:11 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
I came into this thread with no opinion. I tend now to believe she is in some wise involved in it.


How do you explain the fact that there is no evidence she was involved in it?
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:28 pm
@oralloy,
It appears to make a difference if you read foreign or American press. She is pretty and all, which makes it easy to feel sympathy, especially since she was tried in a distant land.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:28 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

Given the all the egregious reporting (like blaming Amanda for the handstand after the police asked her to do it), I think it's safe to discount all anti-Amanda reporting.


First I've heard of that - trying to imagine such a scene. I do remember her mother sloughing it off as stress related or athletic stiffness (I forget the quote).
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:31 pm
@ossobuco,
Pardon me if I mentioned this here before -

but if anyone is interested in italian written police/law procedurals, this is one I liked, apparently part of a trilogy, available in english:
Involuntary Witness by Gianrico Carofiglio
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:37 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
It appears to make a difference if you read foreign or American press. She is pretty and all, which makes it easy to feel sympathy, especially since she was tried in a distant land.


The foreign press is been quite dishonest in their coverage of her, primarily with the intent of placing lies in the jurors' minds (Italy made sure that the jurors got full exposure to the lies), so that would be quite different from media with ethical standards.

However, what press one reads has little bearing on the reality that there is no evidence to show she did it.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:41 pm
There is evidence she was there, just not that she necessarily did the killing.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:44 pm
@ossobuco,
ossobuco wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Given the all the egregious reporting (like blaming Amanda for the handstand after the police asked her to do it), I think it's safe to discount all anti-Amanda reporting.


First I've heard of that - trying to imagine such a scene. I do remember her mother sloughing it off as stress related or athletic stiffness (I forget the quote).


First she was just stretching, but she stretched a bit more than a normal human could. One policeman noticed and asked her about it and she explained she had been trained as a gymnast, and he had her give a few examples.

It was not right when she was being questioned. it was just friendly chit-chat in the waiting room or something like that.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:48 pm
The British public is understandably angry about the brutal murder of a young British woman. I wonder if the British press believes it is giving their readers what they want with negative reporting on those accused of the murder.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:49 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
There is evidence she was there, just not that she necessarily did the killing.


Simply being there is not a crime however.

But what is the evidence she was there? Not the questioning where the Italian police hit her until she said what they wanted to hear I hope.
Merry Andrew
 
  2  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:52 pm
@wandeljw,
Yeah, I had wondered the same thing, wandeljw. From what Aidan has been posting it seems the British press were out to crucify the American girl. Now, that doesn't mean that the American might not be leaning over backwards to give her the benefit of the doubt. I wonder if the American press would be so "fair-minded" if Amanda were British or French or Italian.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:54 pm
@oralloy,
A Texan was recently executed for being there when a murder was committed, even though he was not considered the killer.

By her own words, she was there.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 07:54 pm
@Merry Andrew,
There has been slanted reporting on both sides of "the pond".
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Dec, 2009 08:02 pm
@edgarblythe,
edgarblythe wrote:
By her own words, she was there.


Ah, so you are talking about the questioning where the police kept hitting her until she said what they wanted to hear.

Hardly valid evidence.

And executing innocent people is the official sport of Texas. I'm not sure that they are a good role model to use.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:36 pm
I just managed to talk about this case with an Italian and not have the discussion devolve into horrific insults.

They claim that what Italy calls a "conviction" is more along the lines of what the US would call "indictment by a grand jury", and the "real" trial comes with the first appeal.

Not knowing the first thing about Italian law, I've no idea if that is true. But it would be interesting to confirm or deny. I don't suppose anyone reading this knows something about Italian law?
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 04:51 pm
I don't know how the Italian judicial system works, but I do know that the
Italian police can be very challenging at times and that they're not always working diligently and accurately. They're known to take bribes and they're
known to work favors where favors are needed.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 05:01 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

....They claim that what Italy calls a "conviction" is more along the lines of what the US would call "indictment by a grand jury", and the "real" trial comes with the first appeal.

Not knowing the first thing about Italian law, I've no idea if that is true. But it would be interesting to confirm or deny. I don't suppose anyone reading this knows something about Italian law?


I'm neither a lawyer nor Italian but have a general idea of their legal system - what you were told isn't quite correct. The first court >
Quote:
I due sono stati condannati in primo grado a 26 e 30 anni di reclusione.

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_dicembre_07/frattini-clinton_cf8225e4-e326-11de-b4bf-00144f02aabc.shtml?fr=box_primopiano
> locally known as "primo grado" or "first instance" is subject to being overruled by a higher court, which has the right to try the case all over again - but the primo grado court still really issues a sentence, unlike a grand jury which can only issue indictments i.e. can't pronounce anyone guilty.
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 05:39 pm
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:
oralloy wrote:
....They claim that what Italy calls a "conviction" is more along the lines of what the US would call "indictment by a grand jury", and the "real" trial comes with the first appeal.

Not knowing the first thing about Italian law, I've no idea if that is true. But it would be interesting to confirm or deny. I don't suppose anyone reading this knows something about Italian law?


I'm neither a lawyer nor Italian but have a general idea of their legal system - what you were told isn't quite correct. The first court >
Quote:
I due sono stati condannati in primo grado a 26 e 30 anni di reclusione.

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/09_dicembre_07/frattini-clinton_cf8225e4-e326-11de-b4bf-00144f02aabc.shtml?fr=box_primopiano
> locally known as "primo grado" or "first instance" is subject to being overruled by a higher court, which has the right to try the case all over again - but the primo grado court still really issues a sentence, unlike a grand jury which can only issue indictments i.e. can't pronounce anyone guilty.


That was probably more due to me not wording my post well. They didn't say it was exactly like an indictment in every respect. It does have the criminal sentence. They said it was like an indictment in the sense that it was the step before the rigorous trial, and many people who are ultimately determined to be innocent were first "convicted" like this, just as many people who are ultimately acquitted in a US trial were first indicted.

They didn't just say that the higher court "had the right" to retry the evidence. It sounded more like the higher court *always* retries the evidence. They also said the judges who did this conviction will have to document the reasons for the conviction, and those documented reasons would be the basis for the retrial in the higher court.
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Dec, 2009 06:01 pm
@oralloy,
Well at least the "grand jury" confusion of your Italian friend (shared by our press) can be cleared up right now >
Quote:
Once in court, the case is heard by a presiding judge, with the verdict being given by a jury of two professional judges and six 'lay' judges " giudici laici (mistakenly referred to as 'jurors' by the majority of the western press during the Kercher trial).

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/57166,news-comment,news-politics,nothing-third-world-about-italian-justice-amanda-knox-meredith-kercher
> let's hope Ossobuco comes back, she lived in Italy for a long time and knows their legal system.
 

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