John Allen Muhammed Executed in VA at 9:22 pm

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

We've been here too many times, Joe. This is where I list examples of murderers sentenced to life who've killed again...

You've posted lists before, but not of murderers sentenced to life without parole who have killed anyone outside the prison walls. And that's the only list that has any kind of relevance where the options being discussed are capital punishment and life without parole.

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Meanwhile, I know of no case where an executed murder ever killed again.

Indeed. I also know of no case where an executed jaywalker has ever jaywalked again.

5 Replies

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
We've been here too many times, Joe. This is where I list examples of murderers sentenced to life who've killed again...

You've posted lists before, but not of murderers sentenced to life without parole who have killed anyone outside the prison walls. And that's the only list that has any kind of relevance where the options being discussed are capital punishment and life without parole.

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Meanwhile, I know of no case where an executed murder ever killed again.

Indeed. I also know of no case where an executed jaywalker has ever jaywalked again.

I agree with you here, joe.

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@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
We've been here too many times, Joe. This is where I list examples of murderers sentenced to life who've killed again...

You've posted lists before, but not of murderers sentenced to life without parole who have killed anyone outside the prison walls. And that's the only list that has any kind of relevance where the options being discussed are capital punishment and life without parole.

What is important about the distinction between inside and out? Guards don't matter? Fellow inmates? How do you reconcile it's not okay to kill inmates, but it doesn't matter if convicted killers do?

joefromchicago wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Meanwhile, I know of no case where an executed murder ever killed again.

Indeed. I also know of no case where an executed jaywalker has ever jaywalked again.

Yep. That's pretty effective punishment. Greatly reduces the chance of recidivism.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

What is important about the distinction between inside and out? Guards don't matter? Fellow inmates? How do you reconcile it's not okay to kill inmates, but it doesn't matter if convicted killers do?

My, but you do leap to some rather outrageous conclusions, don't you. I never said that it doesn't matter if convicted killers murder fellow inmates or guards. Rather, my position is that prison killings are an argument for better prisons, not for killing prisoners.

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@OCCOM BILL,

Occom Bill wrote:

We've been here too many times, Joe. This is where I list examples of murderers sentenced to life who've killed again, and you respond with some useless nonsense like, "that's an argument for a better system" or some such thing.

How is that a problem? Joe is right every time on this point, so why shouldn't he say it every time?

1 Reply

I have to go with Joe on this one.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Occom Bill wrote:
We've been here too many times, Joe. This is where I list examples of murderers sentenced to life who've killed again, and you respond with some useless nonsense like, "that's an argument for a better system" or some such thing.

How is that a problem? Joe is right every time on this point, so why shouldn't he say it every time?

Is he? I disagree. I value the life of the murder's next victim more than that of the murderer. I don't see the fairy-tale about better prisons coming true anytime soon. My only objection to the death penalty rests in the sloppy standards of the conviction process.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

Occom Bill wrote:

Is he? I disagree. I value the life of the murder's next victim more than that of the murderer.

I don't see why you would do that -- after all, a life is a life is a life. Even so, for now I'll go with your differentiation between lives for the sake of the argument. My next problem, then, is this: I have seen no good empirical evidence fewer innocent victims get killed in countries or states without capital punishment, as opposed to the US and states with capital punishment, respectively.

Have you? If so, I'd appreciate a pointer.

1 Reply

@realjohnboy,

U had the right to be worried for your life.He got what he deserved,I'm surprised that it actually happened.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Occom Bill wrote:
Is he? I disagree. I value the life of the murder's next victim more than that of the murderer.

I don't see why you would do that -- after all, a life is a life is a life. Even so, for now I'll go with your differentiation between lives for the sake of the argument. My next problem, then, is this: I have seen no good empirical evidence fewer innocent victims get killed in countries or states without capital punishment, as opposed to the US and states with capital punishment, respectively.

Have you? If so, I'd appreciate a pointer.

I haven't. But I haven't really seen the United States’ parallel peer either. Have you?
At the end of the day; your belief that all human lives have value is too different from mine for us to find common ground here. I respectfully disagree.

1 Reply

They planned it all flawlessly, they selected their target and deliberately killed in cold blood.

Shouldn't that be punished somehow?

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@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
What is important about the distinction between inside and out? Guards don't matter? Fellow inmates? How do you reconcile it's not okay to kill inmates, but it doesn't matter if convicted killers do?

My, but you do leap to some rather outrageous conclusions, don't you. I never said that it doesn't matter if convicted killers murder fellow inmates or guards.

Sure you did. Irrelevant= Doesn't matter... and you apparently consider the murders of fellow prisoners and guards irrelevant:

joefromchicago wrote:

You've posted lists before, but not of murderers sentenced to life without parole who have killed anyone outside the prison walls. And that's the only list that has any kind of relevance where the options being discussed are capital punishment and life without parole.

Let’s use your word then. Why are the murders of Guards and fellow prisoners irrelevant? If all lives have value; why is the inside/outside distinction relevant?

1 Reply

I'm surprised that the execution took place so quickly. Very often, prisoners condemned to execution live on for many, many years while appeals wend their way through the courts. An argument against capital punishment which i have heard advanced by opponents to the practice is that, with the cost of lengthy appeals and special, separate incarceration, it is in fact cheaper to warehouse the killer for the rest of his or her life rather than to execute them, and bear such burdens as that. I have not read the entire thread, so i don't know if the question of why he was so speedily executed has been addressed.

I object to execution because i know of no plausible evidence that it deters others from killing, and by the execution, the state relinquishes any claim to moral superiority in the matter. I continue to suspect that this is usually a case of what Nietzsche describes in Beyond Good and Evil when he lists all the putative purposes of penal servitude and execution, and then dismisses them, claiming that the ultimate purpose is revenge, and the gratification of the desire for vengeance by society. I may have stated that imprecisely--it's been by now almost 40 years since i've read that book. I do think, though, that for many of those who support capital punishment, their protestations notwithstanding, the object is vengeance.

1 Reply

@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
Meanwhile, I know of no case where an executed murder ever killed again.

Indeed. I also know of no case where an executed jaywalker has ever jaywalked again.

In fact, all executed criminals have never again committed any crimes.

The death penalty is the ultimate crime deterrent.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
What is important about the distinction between inside and out? Guards don't matter? Fellow inmates? How do you reconcile it's not okay to kill inmates, but it doesn't matter if convicted killers do?

My, but you do leap to some rather outrageous conclusions, don't you. I never said that it doesn't matter if convicted killers murder fellow inmates or guards.
Sure you did. Irrelevant= Doesn't matter... and you apparently consider the murders of fellow prisoners and guards irrelevant:

joefromchicago wrote:
You've posted lists before, but not of murderers sentenced to life without parole who have killed anyone outside the prison walls. And that's the only list that has any kind of relevance where the options being discussed are capital punishment and life without parole.
Let’s use your word then. Why are the murders of Guards and fellow prisoners irrelevant? If all lives have value; why is the inside/outside distinction relevant?

It's the list that's irrelevant, you chucklehead. Is English not your native language?

1 Reply

@Ticomaya,

Ticomaya wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:
OCCOM BILL wrote:
Meanwhile, I know of no case where an executed murder ever killed again.

Indeed. I also know of no case where an executed jaywalker has ever jaywalked again.

In fact, all executed criminals have never again committed any crimes.

The death penalty is the ultimate crime deterrent.

All the more reason to execute jaywalkers.

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@joefromchicago,

joefromchicago wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

joefromchicago wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:
What is important about the distinction between inside and out? Guards don't matter? Fellow inmates? How do you reconcile it's not okay to kill inmates, but it doesn't matter if convicted killers do?

My, but you do leap to some rather outrageous conclusions, don't you. I never said that it doesn't matter if convicted killers murder fellow inmates or guards.
Sure you did. Irrelevant= Doesn't matter... and you apparently consider the murders of fellow prisoners and guards irrelevant:

joefromchicago wrote:
You've posted lists before, but not of murderers sentenced to life without parole who have killed anyone outside the prison walls. And that's the only list that has any kind of relevance where the options being discussed are capital punishment and life without parole.
Let’s use your word then. Why are the murders of Guards and fellow prisoners irrelevant? If all lives have value; why is the inside/outside distinction relevant?

It's the list that's irrelevant, you chucklehead. Is English not your native language?

The list contains people who have been killed by convicted murderers, Joe. Would you prefer a collage? Why are you refusing to explain why murdered guards and inmates have no relevance?

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

You can't tell the difference between the names of people on a list and the people themselves? I see. Now I'm beginning to gain an insight into your thinking processes. No wonder you support capital punishment.

2 Replies

@OCCOM BILL,

Occom Bill wrote:

I haven't. But I haven't really seen the United States’ parallel peer either.

I have. Pretty much every developed country -- every OECD country, say -- is a peer of the US in every regard relevant to the desirability of capital punishment. Each of those peers doesn't have capital punishment, or at least isn't using it in peace time. And each of those peers has dramatically lower murder rates than the US does.

Moreover, within the US, states with capital punishment are peers of states without it. Hence, your failure to find peers to compare does not reflect a dearth of peers. It only reflects a dearth of interest on your part to confront your political faith with empirical reality. (As an aside, this dearth of interest seems quite common to followers of Ayn Rand, who ironically call themselves Objectivists.)

But even if there was an actual dearth of peers to compare, it wouldn't help your argument, because I don't owe you a reason why governments shouldn't go around killing people. You owe me a reason why they should. If you could show that the death penalty leads to fewer people being killed, that would qualify as a good reason. But by your own admission you can't, whether it's your own fault or not.

2 Replies

@Thomas,

Your claim that we need to justify to you our executing killers in our own country no matter what others might or might not do is beyond silly.

Oh look what happen in Germany in the 1980s where they had a numbers of terrorists who ongoing existed was causing problems in prison and somehow all five or so of them decided to kill themselves at the same time.

Too bad we do not have killers/terrorists who would be nice enough to execute themselves.

0 Replies

John Allen Muhammed Executed in VA at 9:22 pm

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