39
   

To stay or not to stay ---That is the question.

 
 
edgarblythe
 
  3  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 11:51 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

You can get a flavour of what I meant by reading the posts on the Latest Challenges to Teaching Evolution thread after I posted this on it--

Quote:
Scientists on the BBC's Horizon Show demonstrated tonight that we don't have free will. How did de Sade know that over 200 years ago? He used a very similar argument too.

You're not choosing to be atheists at all. You only think you are. Your neurons are in charge. As they are with the kids in the schools.

I suppose it must be an evolutionary mechanism to protect us from the dangers of rationality and logic.

It's on i-player if you can get it.


In fact the whole thread is very similar.

I've watched the Horizon show again. Nothing but scientists. At the end the hero was signing a document donating his brain for research and he said that he was doing so despite him no longer being sure who he is.

But you will see posts in which I'm told to go **** myself, a fatuity from effemm, something about after a nuclear war when only the Kenyan Kikuyu survived being "interesting", the nth thousandth assertion from ci. that I wouldn't or couldn't understand evolution if my life depended on it coupled with an instruction to "give up", another bloody picture of Saturn's rings and an approval gesture agreeing that I should go **** myself.

Anybody who can't see what I mean about Yanks being unable to conduct intelligent discussions need look no further.

And, in this case, they are all Yanks who are seeking to promote science in biology lessons.

It's hilarious. How Finn can think of giving up such a reliable source of tittering material beggars belief.


He he. You ought to submit some of your stuff to Monty Python.
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 11:58 am
@edgarblythe,
Spendi isn't in his cups, he's only resting his mind.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 12:26 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
No. But speculation on inner processes took place.

de Sade placed into the speech of Cardinal Bernis the following--

Quote:
The faculty of comparing different methods of action and deciding on the one which appears to us to be the best is what is meant by free will. Does man possess that faculty? I make bold to affirm that he doesn't possess it, and that it would be impossible for him to do so. All our ideas owe their origin to physical and material causes which lead us in spite of ourselves because these causes belong to our organization and the exterior objects which influence us; our motives are the results of these causes, and consequently our will is not free. Assailed by different motives we hesitate, but the instant when we make up our minds doesn't depend on us; it is necessitated by the different dispositions of our organs; we are always led by them, and it never depends on us to take one mode of action rather than another; always moved by necessity, always the slaves of necessity, the very instant when we think we have the most completely demonstrated our free will is the one in which we are led most invincibly. Hesitation and indecision make us believe in the freedom of our will, but that pretended freedom is only the instant when the weights in the balance are equal. As soon as the decision is taken it is because one side is heavier than the other, and it is not we who are the cause of the inequality but physical objects which act on us and make us the plaything of all human conventions, the plaything of the motor force of nature, like the animals and plants.


The scientist in the Horizon show demonstrated that the subject's decision was known to the researcher 6 seconds before the subject knew it. A magnetic resonance imager was monitoring the subject's brain.

de Sade was, as a humane man, opposed to capital punishment for this reason. I think, though I'm not sure, that Manson employed the argument in his defence.

It means, I suppose, that a criminal is punished for his organization and the influences that created it which we now call neurons. But neurons, like the atoms, have components. When they are analysed someone might ask your question at the next remove.

Don't think you understand neurons because you can spell the word correctly like some think they understand evolution because they can write a sentence accusing somebody of not understanding it.

The subject was a mathematics professor at Oxford.

0 Replies
 
panzade
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 12:38 pm
@spendius,
Spendi is
Quote:
a bundle of laughs. He simply doesn't know how to conduct an intelligent discussion. He is so obsessed with his dignity.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 12:49 pm
@panzade,
Hands up all those in favour. Motion carried. Wonderful.

Evelyn Waugh was right.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 01:17 pm
@panzade,
panzade wrote:

Spendi is
Quote:
a bundle of laughs.
He simply doesn't know how to conduct an intelligent discussion.
He is so obsessed with his dignity.
Folks shoud be concerned about their dignities.





David
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 01:19 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Evelyn Waugh was right.
About EVERYTHING ?
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 01:28 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
Evelyn Waugh was right
interesting comment for spendi to make about an agnostic.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 03:23 pm
What about this free will thing then. It was scientists doing the demo and on a scientist who came out of the building and sat on the steps outside looking forlorn. It was a science programme.

If the neurons are a production of horticulture can we compare the atheist ones with the Christian ones. We can say for sure that the Christian ones are the result of long practice. Which explains your residual tolerance and polite manners.

They didn't do reflexes mind you but they might be said not to be subject to choice. Can anybody here not jump in the air when a mouse runs between their feet suddenly and without warning.

Maybe mice are excluded from magnetic resonance imaging environments.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 08:53 am
@georgeob1,
"Some of you likely recall Blatham, who sadly rarely posts here any more...Winning was not the object of the conversation."

I remain sensitive of your understandable preference to remember the past in in such a manner, george.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 09:23 am
B flat is generally acknowledge to be a serious note so let's consider the following to be written in it.

I haven't peeked in here for months. Haven't really even been tempted. It's not as if I understand all the facets of why this might be (for example, I retain a robust fondness for many individuals here and actually speak about you often in conversations with friends) but that's the way it is. Partly, I wanted to read much more and to join in conversations with different groups...new dynamics, new ideas, etc. Also, to be honest, I wished to somehow be more influential in the broad political conversation. Not a lot of success in that last but a thesis I advanced elsewhere floated up into Rachel Maddow's show several months ago. That was satisfying.

In any case, a tip of my hat to many old and valuable friends.
farmerman
 
  3  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 09:37 am
@blatham,
blatham who?
Anybody who leaves A2K to start a blog is in love with the "first draft" world . Ive read some blogs in the science arena and am amazed at how even reputable scientists are in love with the sound of their own voices.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 09:38 am
@blatham,
Nice to see ya. Hope everything is going well for you.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 09:53 am
@farmerman,
Do you have some musicians in mind who don't love the sound of the instrument they play? Some writers who don't love the sound of their own voice?

You're an odd duck, farmerman. There's not a single instance in the past where I've denigrated either you or your writing here. Not once. But you feel a need to take another opportunity here to do so with me?

Is it a matter of character or intelligence wherein you feel yourself superior to me? Less guilty of some crime of narrative or conversation or self-image?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 09:56 am
@blatham,
Hmm, I thought he was affectionately joking.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 10:00 am
@blatham,
Sensitive, much?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 10:03 am
Sensitive? Sure. If I have Farmerman wrong here, then I'll be appropriately embarrassed and would apologize.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 11:03 am
Oh get a grip, Bernie . . . he's a f*ckin' farmer, fer Chrissake . . . he's lucky to produce something legible . . . cut him some slack . . .

(Hehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehehe . . . i enjoyed that . . . )
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 12:03 pm
Set

Hi. Clearly you missed the things he said earlier about my mother's legs.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 12:07 pm
I have never, ever mentioned your mother in a post. Me and the others, we make rude comments about her in private messages and laugh at you behind your back.
0 Replies
 
 

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