Why is sexual abuse of boys not taken seriously

@OmSigDAVID,

Everything is so convulted now that I'm going against my instincts and quote boxing crap....

David said:

Quote:

I assure u, on my honor, that I am not kidding around on your thread

I don't think you're kidding. My point was simply that your attitude shows why abuse of young men is not taken seriously.

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There are things, very brutal things,that a male can do (relating to forcible sodomy) that no female is able to do.

Not true. Women can do any brutal thing a man can do, they just need a "tool" of some sort. It might actually be more brutal when someone has to plan ahead.

Quote:

I have posted hereinabove on this thread that I condemn
and deplore perverted males having sexual contact with minors.

But why don't you condemn perverted women for the same thing?

I brought up the gay teenager because you seem to base your argument on sexual attraction. I was wondering if sexual attraction still played a role when a woman assaults a gay teen.

You aren't attracted to men so you seem men assaulting a boy as criminal, and you give women a pass.

If a boy is not attracted to women does that change the nature of the assault?

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@Robert Gentel,

Robert said:

Quote:

I know two year old males who were sexually abused by females. They enjoyed it at the time but later grew to deeply resent the experience. Here is an example of one such case. The guy murdered one of the women who participated in the abuse in 2005 and then took his own life. As a child he expressed interest in the sexual activity being given him, but he lacked the maturity to give informed consent and it came to haunt him.

This... THIS is what I'm getting at.

I've often heard children described as "sexual beings", they mastrabate, they enjoy touching themselves, they enjoy having other's touch them, etc.

But to me it doesn't seem sexual, sensual maybe is a better word though still not the right word.

(My experience with young children is pretty limited so maybe someone can fill us in on this stuff better.)

For teenagers I imagine the emotional experience of "someone noticed me, someone likes me, blah blah blah" further complicates things.

Crud.... gotta run..... more later....

1 Reply

@boomerang,

The mistake you're making, boomer, is in talking to David as though he were a normal, rational adult human. He is not. Senility set in about the time he was in puberty, I suspect, and has only grown worse with age. Give it up. It's useless. Let him cradle his beloved firearms and go to sleep happy.

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@Merry Andrew,

Ha!

I know David and I will never see eye to eye on ..... well..... probably anything.... but that's one of the reasons I like him. One of the reasons I love a2k and continue to come here is because of the variety of human experience expressed here.

<insert twittery bird sounds>

Lalala. Call me crazy.

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@boomerang,

boomer, you're crazy.

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I think it is because protecting females is a noble exercise because they are weak and need protecting, but protecting males is demeaning because it says that they can't handle it (ie they are weak like females).

Note: This is not my personal view, it is the view of the collective over the ages.

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@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

Robert said:

Quote:
I know two year old males who were sexually abused by females. They enjoyed it at the time but later grew to deeply resent the experience. Here is an example of one such case. The guy murdered one of the women who participated in the abuse in 2005 and then took his own life. As a child he expressed interest in the sexual activity being given him, but he lacked the maturity to give informed consent and it came to haunt him.

This... THIS is what I'm getting at.

I've often heard children described as "sexual beings", they mastrabate, they enjoy touching themselves, they enjoy having other's touch them, etc.

But to me it doesn't seem sexual, sensual maybe is a better word though still not the right word.

(My experience with young children is pretty limited so maybe someone can fill us in on this stuff better.)

For teenagers I imagine the emotional experience of "someone noticed me, someone likes me, blah blah blah" further complicates things.

Crud.... gotta run..... more later....

I think it is sexual, in a very undefined sort of way, with little kids......undefined because they do not have a cognitive concept of sexuality...but that doesn't make a millionth of a cent of difference when it comes to abuse.

Little kids' sexuality/sensuality is their's to explore. It's normal for kids to do some experimentation with kids they are friends with, which gets limited by adults according to the beliefs of the community around them.

Reading a bit of the journals kept by the adults abusing the young man Robert refers to who killed one of his abusers and then himself is one of the saddest and awful things I have ever done. For this man, knowing that this stuff had been distributed amongst members of the cult he was unfortunate enough to have been born into as a kind of child-rearing manual must have been very hard to bear.

Having adults touching little kids sexually is forcing adult sexuality upon a little consciousness not ready for it. It is an act of utter and complete selfishness, done purely for the benefit of the adult. That kids have their own sexuality has nothing to do with it.

I guess what I am trying to say is that considering that little kids have sexuality to some degree rather than calling it sensuality makes no difference to the awfulness of child sexual abuse.

Even if it is not rough, or secretive, or they are not threatened, kids often kind of know there's something not right about it when they are little, (and, thank heavens, speak up more and more about it right there and then) but as they mature and realise the context of what happened, they become more and more distressed.

Often this reaches crisis point at adolescence.

For adolescents, who are discovering their sexuality in a more adult way, it is normal for them to test it out with adults close to them....they strut and preen and wiggle and flirt.

The role of adults here is to make sure the young person can do this safely, guide them, be a bloody good adult role model, and be adult enough not to let any attraction they feel blind them to their responsibilities.

1 Reply

@dlowan,

Quote:

Little kids' sexuality/sensuality is their's to explore. It's normal for kids to do some experimentation with kids they are friends with, which gets limited by adults according to the beliefs of the community around them.

Then you would need to explain why sex is different than everything else about life, where we agree that kids need the direction and teachings of adults.

In any case kids are bombarded by sexual messages and teachings, which are originated from the corporate class pushing their wears, and are also on the Internet everywhere. You are living in a fantasy land thinking that the sexuality of children can ever be left to their own devices..

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who had page 4?...

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@OmSigDAVID,

Actually, David, I can recall reading some research ages ago that suggests that abuse by a close female...especially mother...is MORE emotionally damaging than abuse by father.

It was posited tha this might be because the emotional and physical intimacy of the relationship and with, and expectations of nurture from, the mother tends to be greater...and thus the violation of the trust that the child needs to have in someone in the mother role to ensure its very existence is thus even more intense and intimate.

I don't mean that a child is necessarily more ATTACHED to mother than father, but that gender roles have tended to make the mother/child bond more intimate.

I would imagine that where a male is the primary care-giver, these dynamics would be the same.

For males abused by females.....and I have only worked with a few, compared with the other way round, so I don't feel as confident in talking about them, my experience has been that the sense of desperate confusion and fraughtness is exacerbated because of the prevailing attitudes about male and female sexuality, and that unwinding and making sense of all these feelings is a very difficult process.

That is so with male to male abuse, as well....because males tend to feel "un-manned", at least from adolescence up....but there seems to me to be a special confusion that female to male abuse brings up.

And David, all your stuff about relative violence is kind of irrelevant, in many ways, re child sexual abuse, of girls or boys.

Generally, such abuse is not physically violent....it is the EMOTIONAL violence that kids are affected by.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
Little kids' sexuality/sensuality is their's to explore. It's normal for kids to do some experimentation with kids they are friends with, which gets limited by adults according to the beliefs of the community around them.

Then you would need to explain why sex is different than everything else about life, where we agree that kids need the direction and teachings of adults.

In any case kids are bombarded by sexual messages and teachings, which are originated from the corporate class pushing their wears, and are also on the Internet everywhere. You are living in a fantasy land thinking that the sexuality of children can ever be left to their own devices..

Of course kids need instruction and guidance re sexuality.

What I am talking about is that kids don't need adults to sexually abuse them.

I am saying that, because kids can be thought of as having sexuality does not in any way excuse an adult who uses this sexuality for their own ends.

We don't guide them by ******* them, or wanking them, or having oral sex with them...that sort of stuff.

Was anyone else confused by that, or was that just Hawk's strange way of interpreting stuff?

1 Reply

@dlowan,

Quote:

Generally, such abuse is not physically violent....it is the EMOTIONAL violence that kids are affected by

as with everything the context makes all of the difference. If the friends of the boy whom you call abused say to him that he is one lucky SOB then he will not feel abused, he will feel like a lucky SOB as David does. The solution to the "problem" could be changing the reception of the activity to a positive one just as easy as it could be ending the activity.

The do-gooders are all about trying to get people to decide that XYZ is bad, and then using peer pressure to end it. I have a feeling that everything would end up on their bad list eventually. We should use our own judgement. I am leery of following obvious black/white thinkers always, and even more when they feel like fundamentalists. At some point they start to register as authoritarian and thus backwards people. THe new age belongs to people who can think outside of the box that the collective builds for them.

1 Reply

@dlowan,

Quote:

I am saying that, because kids can be thought of as having sexuality does not in any way excuse an adult who uses this sexuality for their own ends

we agree on this at least

however, most of you types hold the view, and I have reason to think that your view is, that children should be told that they can be sexually however they want to be when they grow up but then you start listing all of the things that they should not want....ie they are defective if they do want.

If you will say that you would feel perfectly OK telling a daughter of yours that she could be a consensual sex slave and you would not think any less of her, then I would reconsider. I am right that you can not go there...correct?

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@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

Several things sparked the question.

One was the thread about the man buying his son a hooker for his 15th birthday, as DrewDad pointed out.

The Jaycee Dugard stories too -- about how she could have gotten away blah blah blah, willing participant blahblahblah, in love with the man blahblahblah. The "well I would have found a way to....." stuff especially bothered me.

The other was a clip from the Nancy Grace show where she was discussing a 26 year old woman who killed her baby because she didn't want to tell on the father, reported to be between 13-16. She was afraid she'd have gotten in trouble for having sex with him. The panel discussing it on the show pointed out that adult women rarely got into serious trouble for having sex with young boys.

So I was talking to Mr. B about it. He was explaining to me that when a boy enters puberty that they can and will get an erection for just about any reason and sometimes for no reason at all; that it is really more physiological than sexual.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people prefer not to recognize women as sexual beings -- that we might just want to have sex for fun "just like a man".

By "jokes" I meant those comments about how "lucky" the boy is.

I think some people view kids as mini-adults, thinking that when we were children that we would have behaved like we would now, as adults.

I've never been a 13 year old boy whose body responded in ways I couldn't fully control -- in a way that might make adult people think I was a willing participant in a rape.

I guess what I'm saying is that I asked the question to help me sort out a lot of random but interconnected thoughts. Thank you all so much for your enlightening replies!

Gotcha!!!

I am so hoping the prostitute got charged, too.

That killing the baby thing is utterly horriffic.

I suspect the panel is wrong about punishment for females though, at least re recent times.

At least here. I don't know about the states...

We have a few in prison for just that....and given how hard it is here to get ANYONE in prison for child abuse, there must be somr serious responding going on.

Where I work, abuse by females is taken just as seriously as abuse by males....and we cover a good deal more than half the state. Our colleagues who do the other bit do the same. The police are just as diligent, the welfare just as protective (which is hardly at all for anyone, they are so under-resourced, but that is another story.) I know this is national, because people talk about these things.

But I guess my sample of how seriously it is taken is not a general community sample....sadly, we get to see how too many of the community thinks by the comments we see about it here, again and again when this issue is raised.

By the way, at least here, if the adult is not far above the young woman or man in age, and the young person is consenting, unless there is a fiduciary relationship between them (you know, parent, step-parent, teacher, therapist, nurse, doctor, carer etc.) or the young person is very vulnerable, resources generally dictate that there won't be much follow-up...whether the adult is male or female. Though it's kind of hit and miss, and dependent upon context.

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@DrewDad,

I am very sorry to hear about your abuse DrewDad.

I think men like you who are prepared to speak so publicly about this (and I admire your courage in doing so) make it easier for other males to come forward.

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@dlowan,

Seconding Deb's comments, DrewDad. Well done & good on you!

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
I am saying that, because kids can be thought of as having sexuality does not in any way excuse an adult who uses this sexuality for their own ends

we agree on this at least

however, most of you types hold the view, and I have reason to think that your view is, that children should be told that they can be sexually however they want to be when they grow up but then you start listing all of the things that they should not want....ie they are defective if they do want.

If you will say that you would feel perfectly OK telling a daughter of yours that she could be a consensual sex slave and you would not think any less of her, then I would reconsider. I am right that you can not go there...correct?

I would have no power to tell a daughter of mine that she could not be a consensual sex-slave once she was of age to legally make her own decisions.

As with any parent, there would be numerous things I hope she would not do....like hurt people, be homeless, be involved in activities that seriously damage the environment, be selfish and heartless, not look after her teeth, be intellectually lazy, take drugs that did her harm, or, indeed, be a sex-slave.

Parents have numerous hopes and dreams for their kids, and numerous things they hope they would not do.

Why is your focus always and only upon sex?

I would hope very much a daughter of mine would not be a sex-slave, as I would hope many other things for her.

If she chose to be one, I would remain loving and supportive, and hope that she might change her choices one day...just as I would with the other things I have listed, and many more I have not listed.

Just as I am with my step-son who has chosen to be in the army.

I hate it, as does his mother, but he is an adult making his own choices.

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@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Then you would need to explain why sex is different than everything else about life, where we agree that kids need the direction and teachings of adults.

Kids need the direction and teaching of adults (think education, not screwing kids) when it comes to sex too, but at the right time and in the right way.

An adult having sex with a kid has nothing to do with teaching the kid about sex and everything to do with the adult achieving their own sexual satisfaction with them.

Quote:

You are living in a fantasy land thinking that the sexuality of children can ever be left to their own devices..

She's talking about not becoming sexually involved with kids, not ignoring their sexual development altogether.

Edit: just noticed that dlowan already answered this for herself.

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There is a serious disconnect in the way Hawkeye views these matters. Society doesn't make a distinction between sexual matters and all other matters when it comes to those who are not the age of consent. In many countries, perhaps most countries outside the United States, minors are not allowed to drive automobiles or are restricted in their driving--for example, in Ontario, the number of teenagers in an automobile driven by a teenager is strictly limited--actuarial statistics show that for each additional teenager over two, the risk of an accident resulting in serious injury or death quadruples (presumably because teenagers egg one another on to drive faster and more recklessly). Teenagers under the age of 18 in Ontario may not drive on the 400 series of highways--essentially the equivalent of the Interstate highways in the United States. When i lived in Ireland in the 1970s, although theoretically one could have a driver's license at the age of 18, the people i knew commented that people were fortunate to get a license before the age of 22.

The civilized world deplores the exploitation of children as child soldiers. The civilized world does not allow minors to sign binding contracts. The civilized world restricts the hours of employment for minors, and bars them from employment in many fields. In short, the civilized world recognizes that minors lack the skills of judgment and discernment which distinguish (at least ostensibly) adults, and therefore, in just about every aspect of life for which adults are not restricted, minors are. It's not just in the realm of sexuality.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

The civilized world deplores the exploitation of children as child soldiers. The civilized world does not allow minors to sign binding contracts. The civilized world restricts the hours of employment for minors, and bars them from employment in many fields. In short, the civilized world recognizes that minors lack the skills of judgment and discernment which distinguish (at least ostensibly) adults, and therefore, in just about every aspect of life for which adults are not restricted, minors are. It's not just in the realm of sexuality.

the civilized world has been increasing the age at which humans are considered idiots and in need of chaperones, but science has proven that because of the technological advances humans are developing faster than we ever have. Biologically we are growing up faster than we once did. The law and majority attitudes should reflect reality as it has been proven by science. If you don't like that then prove science wrong, but don't come trotting down the road with your fundamentalist moral rantings. You are as yesterday as the Bible thumpers.

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Why is sexual abuse of boys not taken seriously

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