21
   

Why is sexual abuse of boys not taken seriously

 
 
ebrown p
 
  -3  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 06:29 am
@dlowan,
Come on Dlowan!... here we are, talking about adult women abusing boys.

Listen very carefully here. In this case the women are the perpetrators. The boys are the victims. Blaming the boys for what is being done to them is simply wrong (in the same way the blaming girls for being raped is wrong).

So why then, when talking about women committing a sexual crime-- do you insist on talking about how bad men are? You have talked about "primitive attitudes held by ignorant males' (note that you singled out males) and the perversion of "old guys".

This is ridiculous.

Sure, in some other thread, your views of how abusive men are is probably relevant.

But this is a thread about female perpetrators. Could you leave your rather dim view of male sexuality out of it.
dyslexia
 
  3  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 06:50 am
I don't have much to add to this other than to say that my very first child protection assignment was a report from a school nurse re a 12 yr old boy being sexually abused by his 35 yr old aunt, I determined it was 'founded" and took it to my female supervisor who laughed and said there was no such thing as sexual abuse by a female to a 12 yr old boy. In spite of my supervisor I presented the case to our D.A. for criminal prosecution, he indicated that I had a legitimate case but he would no prosecute because no jury would convict so, on my own, I presented the case in children's court. I asked the court for a restraint/no contact order against the aunt but the court instead ordered the boy be placed in foster care in a distant state thus punishing the lad (removal from family/home/school/peers) there was no sanction against the aunt.
dlowan
 
  5  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 06:53 am
@ebrown p,
The quesrtion was about why abuse by women is seen as less serious by some.

As both Robert and I have pointed out, this is an attitude largely held by males with a stupid view of sexuality.

Where have I blamed a victim of a female perpetrator for his abuse?


To anyone but you, I have made it clear that I do NOT hold any victim of sexual abuse responsible, and do not share any such ridiculous beliefs asbout male victims of female abuse.

Comments about males have come out of the threat debate.

Where do you DARE to say I have held a male victim responsible?






0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 06:54 am
@dyslexia,
Dyslexia, you are a hero.

I am sorry there wasn't a better outcome.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 06:55 am
@dyslexia,
And how many years ago was that?

Do you contend the cp system in the USA is still the same?


Investigations and prosecution of female abuse is the same here as male.

Both have a dim chance of being convicted if the witness is a child, but that's a different story.

0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  5  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 07:10 am
@ebrown p,
ebrown p wrote:
Listen very carefully here. In this case the women are the perpetrators. The boys are the victims. Blaming the boys for what is being done to them is simply wrong (in the same way the blaming girls for being raped is wrong).

We're all quite capable of following the discussion, and Dlowan's comments are entirely reasonable. Discussions of male vs. female predators are entirely appropriate when discussing behavior for protecting children. And nowhere did anyone blame the children for being abused.

I think you're just embarrassed that you got called out for that idiotic comment about "Lolitas".
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 07:14 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
I think you're just embarrassed that you got called out for that idiotic comment about "Lolitas".


Bingo ! ! !

Give that man a cee-gar . . .
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 08:19 am
Several things sparked the question.

One was the thread about the man buying his son a hooker for his 15th birthday, as DrewDad pointed out.

The Jaycee Dugard stories too -- about how she could have gotten away blah blah blah, willing participant blahblahblah, in love with the man blahblahblah. The "well I would have found a way to....." stuff especially bothered me.

The other was a clip from the Nancy Grace show where she was discussing a 26 year old woman who killed her baby because she didn't want to tell on the father, reported to be between 13-16. She was afraid she'd have gotten in trouble for having sex with him. The panel discussing it on the show pointed out that adult women rarely got into serious trouble for having sex with young boys.

So I was talking to Mr. B about it. He was explaining to me that when a boy enters puberty that they can and will get an erection for just about any reason and sometimes for no reason at all; that it is really more physiological than sexual.

I think part of the problem is that a lot of people prefer not to recognize women as sexual beings -- that we might just want to have sex for fun "just like a man".

By "jokes" I meant those comments about how "lucky" the boy is.

I think some people view kids as mini-adults, thinking that when we were children that we would have behaved like we would now, as adults.

I've never been a 13 year old boy whose body responded in ways I couldn't fully control -- in a way that might make adult people think I was a willing participant in a rape.

I guess what I'm saying is that I asked the question to help me sort out a lot of random but interconnected thoughts. Thank you all so much for your enlightening replies!
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 08:31 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
One was the thread about the man buying his son a hooker for his 15th birthday, as DrewDad pointed out.

That was Rockhead, actually, but I'm flattered by the comparison.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 08:43 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
I think some people view kids as mini-adults, thinking that when we were children that we would have behaved like we would now, as adults.

I think there's a good bit of denial in there, too. People just don't want to think about other people's pain, so they create these counter-factual beliefs to insulate themselves.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 10:05 am
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:

if it is commited by a woman?

Keep your "jokes" to yourself.

As the mother of a son I'm dead serious about this.

If it's done by a man everyone gets bent out of shape. But if it's done by a woman we seem to be very forgiving.

What is up with this nonsense?

boomerang wrote:

if it is commited by a woman?

Keep your "jokes" to yourself.

As the mother of a son I'm dead serious about this.

If it's done by a man everyone gets bent out of shape.
But if it's done by a woman we seem to be very forgiving.

What is up with this nonsense?
I am nothing if not candid and sincere.
This has nothing to do with "jokes".

When I was 11, I had a one night stand with a 17 year old girl
who made advances to me, and a much longer sexual relationship
with a 23 year old girl who did also. Tho I did not request sex the FIRST time,
I certainly desired sex more ofen than she did thereafter, and usually got it.

In all instances, we had our privacy and we were never challenged. If a challenge had arisen,
I 'd have done whatever was reasonably necessary to defend and protect the situation.
In my mind, that was a private matter between me and each of them.
If I had stopped to think about it, I woud had conceived of it
as being the same as sex between consenting adults
(I considered myself to be an adult at the time and I bitterly resented
any legal curtailments, such as my being disenfranchized)
with the same rights of freedom and privacy.

I have read this thread.
As of the time of this writing no one except only Robert Gentel
has offered any indication WHATSOEVER of a reason to believe that sexuality
in its natural form (i.e., no whips nor chains etc.)
between a boy and a woman is harmful to either.

Robert said that someone committed suicide because of this.
If he had been much older, woud he then NOT committed suicide?
Is this known? That hardly seems likely.

I know not who it was nor what the circumstances were.
Perhaps in the same circumstances (whatever thay were)
maybe I 'd have committed suicide too. I doubt that we know enuf
about that case to be certain that his age at the time was necessarily
the competent producing cause; maybe it was. Who knows ?

I wish and yearn for the opportunity to live my life over again
from very early youth -- everything that I am able to remember,
from about age 3 -- and to be able to correct my mistakes,
but for certain, I 'd fully enjoy again my encounters with those girls.
I woud not change them.

Altho it was a fact that thay took the initiative,
the resulting pleasure was very worth while and I woud not relinquish that.

I 'm pretty sure that more people have committed suicide
for adult sexual involvements than for juvenile sexual conduct,
except for juvenile suicides resulting from unrequited love and rejection.
I knew a fellow with a fine intellectual mind, good education
(master's degree) and a very nice guy who defenestrated himself
to death, because of being rejected by his girlfriend.
I knew a NY State trial judge who was distraught because a
litigant in his court committed suicide after he lost a bench trial in his court.
I have read of NYC Police who became distraught over defensively
killing criminals, and the police later committing suicide.
This same thing was true of soldiers who committed suicide
after killing in combat with the enemy, my point being that
people will kill themselves without good reasons.

Please accept my assurance that when I was having successful
sexual contact with those girls, if anyone had said that I shoud not
do it because some other kid will commit suicide,
I 'd not have accepted that reasoning.

Based upon my personal experience well over half a century ago,
I believe that if a boy succeeds in having sexual contact
with a girl or a woman, he will feel that to be a GOOD thing.
If I had to, I woud have traded good grades in school in exchange
for those sexual experiences when thay occurred to me.

It is my opinion
that (except for possible non-age related STDs or pregnancies)
NO ILL EFFECTS will result from a boy having sex with a woman.

To put my point another way:
If someone gets into his car and drives,
in my opinion, there is much, much greater CHANCE
that he will crash and get killed than

than the CHANCE that if a boy has sex with a woman,
then he will have ANY ill effects, including, but not limited to: suicide.

As an ex-boy who went thru it,
I feel very strongly (attributed suicides to the contrary notwithstanding)
that there is no basis in fact for the assumption, the unproven assumption, that any ill effects will result
from sex between a boy and a woman and there is no reliable evidence at all to the contrary.

If a sexual abuser is a MALE,
then he shoud go to jail, but that does not apply to women
who shoud be free of any such interference.

If I ever serve on a jury
hearing a case of statutory rape
of a woman upon a boy who liked it and who co-operated,
she will have little danger of conviction.

The notion that boys will be harmed by sex with women is idle superstition.

It is very mistaken to criminalize harmless conduct
based upon IDLE SUPERSTITION.

If people wish to enact law to prohibit the conduct of others
then it behooves THEM to prove that harm results from that conduct.
No one has even as much as TRIED to prove that.

As it stands, I am the only person on this thread who
has had personal experience with the subject matter hereof,
and upon the basis of that experience,
I declare that sex between a boy and a woman is OK,
its good and its harmless; less dangerous than swimming in the ocean or riding a bike.
( I got HURT from bikes. )

The score is 1 to zero.





Thus saith David
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 10:20 am
The volume of the drivel doesn't authenticate the vapidity with which it was constructed.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  7  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 10:21 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
The notion that boys will be harmed by sex with women is idle superstition.

For a Mensan, you sure are an idiot.

I was sexually abused by two separate, older females. It's caused me pain, depression, anger, and issues with sex, and difficulty trusting people.

There's also a huge amount of research on this topic, which refutes your claim.

http://www.jimhopper.com/male-ab/

Quote:
The Effects of Child Abuse Depend on a Variety of Factors

We have learned from many people's experiences and a great deal of research that the effects of abuse and neglect depend on a variety of factors. Below I group these effects into those which research has shown to influence negative outcomes, and a variety of other factors that are harder to measure for research purposes and/or may be very important for some people but not others.

Factors research has shown to influence the effects of abuse:

* Age of the child when the abuse happened. Younger is usually more damaging, but different effects are associated with different developmental periods.

* Who committed the abuse. Effects are generally worse when it was a parent, step-parent or trusted adult than a stranger.

* Whether the child told anyone, and if so, the person's response. Doubting, ignoring, blaming and shaming responses can be extremely damaging - in some cases even more than the abuse itself.

* Whether or not violence was involved, and if so, how severe.

* How long the abuse went on.

Additional factors that are difficult to research or may differ in significance for different people:

* Whether the abuse involved deliberately humiliating the child.

* How "normal" such abuse was in the extended family and local culture.

* Whether the child had loving family members, and/or knew that someone loved her or him.

* Whether the child had some good relationships - with siblings, friends, teachers, coaches, etc.

* Whether the child had relationships in which "negative" feelings were acceptable, and could be expressed and managed safely and constructively.

Some of these factors are about how severe the abuse was, and some are about the relational context of the abuse and the child's reactions. Both types of factors are extremely important.

A great deal of research has been conducted, and continues to be conducted, on how such factors determine outcomes for those abused in childhood. Factors that increase the likelihood of negative outcomes have been referred to as "risk factors," and ones that decrease the likelihood of negative outcomes as "protective factors." Every person who has experienced abuse is unique. And every person who has experienced abuse has a unique combination of risk and protective factors that have influenced, and continue to influence, the effects in his or her life.

In summary, it is important to appreciate that these issues are very complex, and to be familiar with how abuse and neglect can - depending on a variety of other factors - affect various aspects of a person's life. Keep this in mind as you search the web for information and understanding about the effects of child abuse.


Potential Long-Term Effects of the Sexual Abuse of Males

This section lists potential, but not inevitable, lasting effects of the sexual abuse of male children. It should not be read as a "laundry list" of problems and symptoms that necessarily follow the sexual abuse of males, nor does the presence of any in males with sexual abuse histories necessarily mean the abuse is their primary cause. (See above.)

Findings on the long-term effects of child sexual abuse in males have been more consistent than those on prevalence. Methodologies for detecting problems and symptoms that could be outcomes are relatively straightforward, and many studies have utilized standardized measures that are widely accepted in the field.

First, I want to recommend a paper by David Lisak, Ph.D. This paper contains many powerful quotations from interviews with male survivors of sexual abuse. Lisak groups the quotations into themes, and discusses them with remarkable insight and compassion. The themes are:

* Anger
* Fear
* Homosexuality Issues
* Helplessness
* Isolation and Alienation
* Legitimacy
* Loss
* Masculinity Issues
* Negative Childhood Peer Relations
* Negative Schemas about People
* Negative Schemas about the Self
* Problems with Sexuality
* Self Blame/Guilt
* Shame/Humiliation

One man emailed me to share this experience: "reading [Lisak's article] was the first time I realized that other people have the same issues I have. I sat in the library and cried when I read that article. Not the usual reaction to scholarly research, but I'm sure Prof. Lisak wouldn't mind" (used with permission).

Lisak, D. (1994). The psychological impact of sexual abuse: Content analysis of interviews with male survivors. Journal of Traumatic Stress, 7, 525-548.

Using standardized measures of symptoms, researchers have found that men who were sexually abused in childhood, whether or not they seek out mental health services, may suffer from:

* Anxiety
* Depression
* Dissociation
* Hostility and anger
* Impaired relationships
* Low self-esteem
* Sexual dysfunction
* Sleep disturbance
* Suicidal ideas and behavior

The following researchers have used standardized measures and found different combinations of the above symptoms:

* Bagley, Wood, & Young, 1994
* Briere, Evans, Runtz, & Wall, 1988
* Collings, 1995
* Fromuth & Burkhart, 1989
* Hunter, 1991
* Olson, 1990
* Peters & Range, 1995

Therapists working with men who were sexually abused in childhood have conducted clinical case studies and consistently reported findings on long-term problems including:

* Guilt and self-blame

Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989; Hunter, 1990.

* Low self-esteem and negative self-image

Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989.

* Problems with intimacy

Bruckner & Johnson, 1987; Dimock, 1988; Lew, 1988; Krug, 1989; Hunter, 1990.

* Sexual problems, compulsions, or dysfunctions

Bruckner & Johnson, 1987; Johnson & Shrier, 1987; Dimock, 1988; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989; Hunter, 1990.

* Substance abuse and depression

Krug, 1989.

* Symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

Myers, 1989.

Some of the long-term effects of sexual abuse are related to the development of gender identity. A number of clinicians' case studies indicate that male survivors of childhood sexual abuse may experience:

* Attempts to "prove" their masculinity by having multiple female sexual partners, sexually victimizing others, and/or engaging in dangerous or violent behaviors

Bruckner & Johnson, 1987; Lew 1988.

* Confusion over their gender and sexual identities

Nasjleti, 1980; Bruckner & Johnson, 1987; Johnson & Shrier, 1987; Dimock, 1988; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989; Gilgun & Reiser, 1990.

* Sense of being inadequate as men

Dimock, 1988; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989; Pierce & Pierce, 1985.

* Sense of lost power, control, and confidence in their manhood

Myers, 1989.

Finally, some clinicians have noted that sexually abused males often experience confusion and distress about their sexuality:

* Confusion about their own sexual orientation

Nasjleti, 1980; Dimock, 1988; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989; Gilgun & Reiser, 1990.

* Fear that the sexual abuse has caused or will cause them to become homosexual

Nasjleti, 1980; Finkelhor, 1984; Dimock, 1988; Gilgun & Reiser, 1990; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989.

* Homophobia, an irrational fear or intolerance of homosexuality

Gilgun & Reiser, 1990; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989.

boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 11:08 am
Well... David's post does make it clear that there are people who indeed don't take it seriously.

I really, really don't get this:

Quote:
If a sexual abuser is a MALE,
then he shoud go to jail, but that does not apply to women
who shoud be free of any such interference.


If a gay 15 year old boy is raped by a woman should she go to jail and it be okay if he was raped by a man?

I found this interesting overview of studies (haven't looked up the actual studies yet though) showing that abuse by men and women towards teenage boys isn't all that different:

Quote:
Dynamics of Female Perpetrated Abuse

Some research has reported that female perpetrators commit fewer and less intrusive acts of sexual abuse compared to males. While male perpetrators are more likely to engage in anal intercourse and to have the victim engage in oral-genital contact, females tend to use more foreign objects as part of the abusive act (Kaufman, 1995). This study also reported that differences were not found in the frequency of vaginal intercourse, fondling by the victim or abuser, genital body contact without penetration, or oral contact by the abuser.

Females may be more likely to use verbal coercion than physical force. The most commonly reported types of abuse by female perpetrators include vaginal intercourse, oral sex, fondling, and group sex (Faller, 1987; Hunter et al., 1993). However, women also engage in mutual masturbation, oral, anal, and genital sex acts, show children pornography, and play sex games (Johnson, 1989; Knopp and Lackey, 1987). The research suggests that, overall, female and male perpetrators commit many of the same acts and follow many of the same patterns of abuse against their victims. They also do not tend to differ significantly in terms of their relationship to the victim (most are relatives) or the location of the abuse (Allen, 1991; Kaufman et al., 1995).

It is interesting to note in the study by Kaufman et al., (1995), that 8% of the female perpetrators were teachers and 23% were baby-sitters, compared to male perpetrators who were 0% and 8% respectively. Finkelhor et al., (1988) also report significantly higher rates of sexual abuse of children by females in daycare settings. Of course Finkelhor's findings should not surprise us given that women represent the majority of daycare employees.

Research on teen and adult female sexual abuse perpetrators has found that many suffer from low self-esteem, antisocial behaviour, poor social and anger management skills, fear of rejection, passivity, promiscuity, mental health problems, posttraumatic stress disorder, and mood disorders (Hunter, Lexier, Goodwin, Browne, and Dennis, 1993; Mathews, Matthews, and Speltz, 1989). However, as in the case of male perpetrators, research does not substantiate that highly emotionally disturbed or psychotic individuals predominate among the larger population of female sexual abusers (Faller, 1987).

There is some evidence that females are more likely to be involved with co-abusers, typically a male, though studies report a range from 25% - 77% (Faller, 1987; Kaufman et al., 1995; McCarty, 1986). However, Mayer (1992), in a review of data on 17 adolescent female sex offenders, found that only 2 were involved with male co-perpetrators. She also found that the young women in this study knew their victims and that none experienced legal consequences for their actions.

Self-report studies provide a very different view of sexual abuse perpetration and increase the number of female perpetrators substantially. In a retrospective study of male victims, 60% reported being abused by females (Johnson and Shrier, 1987). The same rate was found in a sample of college students (Fritz et al., 1981). In other studies of male university and college students, rates of female perpetration were found at levels as high as 72% - 82% (Fromuth and Burkhart, 1987, 1989; Seidner and Calhoun, 1984). Bell et al., (1991) found that 27% of males were abused by females. In some of these types of studies females represent as much as 50% of sexual abusers (Risin and Koss, 1987). Knopp and Lackey (1987) found that 51% of victims of female sexual abusers were male. It is evident that case report and self-report studies yield very different types of data about prevalence. These extraordinary differences tell us we need to start questioning all of our assumptions about perpetrators and victims of child maltreatment.

Finally, there is an alarmingly high rate of sexual abuse by females in the backgrounds of rapists, sex offenders, and sexually aggressive men, 59% (Petrovich and Templer, 1984), 66% (Groth, 1979), and 80% (Briere and Smiljanich, 1993). A strong case for the need to identify female perpetrators can be found in Table 4, which presents the findings from a study of adolescent sex offenders by O'Brien (1989). Male adolescent sex offenders abused by "females only" chose female victims almost exclusively.


http://www.aest.org.uk/survivors/male/ibc3.html

In my opinion it doesn't matter if the abuser is a man or a woman, they're doing the same things to the same person and it is criminal. The abuser's gender doesn't make a difference.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 11:16 am
I was unclear about the victim in your posted material, Boom . . . from the language, it seems to be describing the sexual abuse of females.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 11:21 am
The last part does refer to girls being abused by men but the context is that men who abuse girls were often abused by women when they were young; that one of the outcomes of boys being abused by women is that they grow up to abuse girls.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  6  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 11:24 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
Please accept my assurance that when I was having successful
sexual contact with those girls, if anyone had said that I shoud not
do it because some other kid will commit suicide,
I 'd not have accepted that reasoning.


David that isn't at all the point. But when you seek to extrapolate your anecdotal evidence into a blanket justification for all such cases is where I feel you are wrong.

I don't care to convince you that your experience was bad, I know that many people can have similarly positive experiences like that. But the fact remains that many don't and you can't take your own experience and determine that no wrongdoing was done.

At the time it occurred there was no way to tell if it would have been a positive or negative experience for you and you were not old enough to give informed consent (as determined by the society you lived in).

Quote:
If a sexual abuser is a MALE,
then he shoud go to jail, but that does not apply to women
who shoud be free of any such interference.


David, I have no objections to you claiming your personal experience was not negative for you, but I strongly object to this kind of reasoning. Just because you liked it doesn't mean that everyone else would.

Remember that German guy who liked the idea of being eaten? He went to be killed and eaten by another man willingly. Does that mean that all acts of homicide and cannibalism are not to be punished? You just can't take your own experience and expect it to serve as the litmus test for everyone.

Quote:
If I ever serve on a jury
hearing a case of statutory rape
of a woman upon a boy who liked it and who co-operated,
she will have little danger of conviction.


Well it's a good thing that this opinion would disqualify you from serving on such a jury then. I wish you would consider that many times the victim will view it positively initially and even cooperate but then feel differently about their experience as they mature. The notion of informed consent is important, if complicated. If a two-year old said she wanted to have sex you certainly wouldn't consider that informed consent would you? Not all adolescents are the same, and while some may be able to have such experiences without any negative effects many aren't and as a society we do not deem them responsible enough to make such decisions for themselves.

Young people can be easily manipulated, and are susceptible to authority figures who may not have their well-being in mind. These laws exist to protect children from predation that if you though about you would certainly acknowledge exists. Even if you did enjoy it and felt no ill effects from the experience you should be able to see that these societal rules exist for good reason to protect others who may not end up feeling the way you do.

You take a very ignorant position where you claim that female sexual abuse is not harmful while that perpetrated by males is, but you should know that many times young girls consider the abuse positive initially as well. Others still grow up to never view it negatively.

This is one of the tough complications of breaching these boundaries. And yes, sometimes society doesn't like to face the fact that many such adult/child encounters don't end up being harmful to either. But you can't ignore that for many they do, and in an awful way.

Quote:
The notion that boys will be harmed by sex with women is idle superstition.


No, it's not. Your anecdotal evidence does not support this conclusion. Others report being harmed, and you just can't extrapolate your own experience to all kids.

Quote:
It is very mistaken to criminalize harmless conduct
based upon IDLE SUPERSTITION.


It's even more mistaken to advocate decriminalization of harmful conduct based on poor reasoning and one person's anecdotal evidence.

I wish you'd consider that your personal experience doesn't translate into others feeling the same way.

Quote:
If people wish to enact law to prohibit the conduct of others
then it behooves THEM to prove that harm results from that conduct.
No one has even as much as TRIED to prove that.


Nonsense. You haven't done any more than relate your personal experience, which is more than met by the personal experiences that contradict your claim and the many scientific studies on the subject.

Quote:
As it stands, I am the only person on this thread who
has had personal experience with the subject matter hereof,
and upon the basis of that experience,
I declare that sex between a boy and a woman is OK,
its good and its harmless; less dangerous than swimming in the ocean or riding a bike.
( I got HURT from bikes. )


No you aren't. Seems like a lot of people here have had similar experiences. And again it would do you well to consider that individuals are different and that their experiences may be in stark contrast to yours.

I really wish you'd take the time to consider the consequences of what you advocate David. It's not hard for you to see that predation exists, and that these are necessary boundaries to prevent harmful predation. Your personal experience being positive simply does not mean that elimination of this boundary would be a positive thing for others. There is such thing as harmful sexual abuse of boys by women David and the boundaries exist to prevent such harm.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  0  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 12:09 pm
@DrewDad,
OmSigDAVID wrote:
The notion that boys will be harmed by sex with women is idle superstition.

DrewDad wrote:
Quote:
For a Mensan, you sure are an idiot.

In other words,
YOUR intelligence is so relatively MAGNIFICENT that u need to start a FLAME WAR
on Boomer 's thread, because u r not enuf of a gentleman to be civil.
Did I get that right?


DrewDad wrote:
Quote:
I was sexually abused by two separate, older females.
It's caused me pain, depression, anger, and issues with sex,
and difficulty trusting people.

Congratulations about not trusting people; that was a valuable service in teaching u that.
(Co-incidentally, someone reported on a recent interview with Michael Jackson, as to what he had learned over his life;
he said that he learned not to trust people.)

MY experiences were ordinary face-to-face sex, for the most part,
nothing unusual. If u feel like it u can tell us what the problems
were, or keep them confidential, but don 't blame MY girls
for the errors of YOUR girls. I think that 's fair.
I 'm grateful to mine.

Its kind of like posting that your cab driver crashed and got u hurt,
so I shoud be prohibited from taking cabs if I wanna.

NO SALE, Drew !!!


DrewDad wrote:
Quote:
There's also a huge amount of research on this topic, which refutes your claim.
Then I 'd like to read it.
U sure did not post any.

What u posted is only someone 's personal opinions,
and not even opinions, the way that he set them forth.
WHAT U POSTED SAYS NOTHING ABOUT SEX BETWEEN BOYS and WOMEN,
which is the subject matter of this thread,
not abuse by males. There is a WORLD of difference, a huge difference,
between boys being abused (sodomized?) by perverted males,
and boys having good, satisfying sex with women.


What u posted coud never competently be received into evidence
and presented to a jury in a court of law
(in America; I don't know about other jurisdictions)
because thay are 100% conclusory and overtly speculative, not evidentiary.

Their author invites u to accept his vague undefined opinions.

This is the SECOND time that u have posted incompetent
research falsely purporting to suport your point of vu, Drew.
The first time was your fony anti-gun research.


http://www.jimhopper.com/male-ab/

Quote:
The Effects of Child Abuse Depend on a Variety of Factors
WHAT is "abuse"; how do we define that? ordinary sex?
Hitting him with a whip? WHAT ?

We have learned from many people's experiences and a great deal of research that the effects of abuse and neglect depend on a variety of factors. Below I group these effects into those which research has shown to influence negative outcomes,
WHAT about positive outcomes?
Is it scientific to consider only ONE SIDE of it?



and a variety of other factors that are harder to measure for research purposes and/or may be very important for some people but not others.
What do u mean "important"?
Is that scienific ???
How is that quantified?


Factors research has shown to influence the effects of abuse:
WHAT kind of "research" ?
Controlled experiments?
Double blind experiments?


* Age of the child when the abuse happened.
WHAT abuse is this? Rape? Forcible sodomy? Kissing? WHAT?

Younger is usually more damaging, but different effects are associated with different developmental periods.

* Who committed the abuse. Effects are generally worse when it was a parent, step-parent or trusted adult than a stranger.
Are we discussing INCEST in this thread ?? I was not aware of that.




* Whether the child told anyone, and if so, the person's response. Doubting, ignoring, blaming and shaming responses can be extremely damaging - in some cases even more than the abuse itself.




* Whether or not violence was involved, and if so, how severe.
OBVIOUSELY. No one disputes the immorality and illegality of violence.
I thought we were discussing willing behavior.


* How long the abuse went on.

Additional factors that are difficult to research or may differ in significance for different people:
Does this mean guesswork, because thay are DIFFICULT to research?

* Whether the abuse involved deliberately humiliating the child.

* How "normal" such abuse was in the extended family and local culture.

* Whether the child had loving family members, and/or knew that someone loved her or him.

* Whether the child had some good relationships - with siblings, friends, teachers, coaches, etc.

* Whether the child had relationships in which "negative" feelings were acceptable, and could be expressed and managed safely and constructively.

Some of these factors are about how severe the abuse was,
and some are about the relational context of the abuse and
the child's reactions. Both types of factors are extremely important.WHAT is "abuse"? Kissing? Brutal sodomy ?

A great deal of research has been conducted, and continues to be conducted, on how such factors determine outcomes for those abused in childhood. Factors that increase the likelihood of negative outcomes have been referred to as "risk factors," and ones that decrease the likelihood of negative outcomes as "protective factors." Every person who has experienced abuse is unique. And every person who has experienced abuse has a unique combination of risk and protective factors that have influenced, and continue to influence, the effects in his or her life.Notice reference only to NEGATIVE outcomes with no reporting of positive outcomes.
This is naked prejudice, intended only to justify a preconceived conclusion.


In summary, it is important to appreciate that these issues are very complex, and to be familiar with how abuse and neglect can - depending on a variety of other factors - affect various aspects of a person's life. Keep this in mind as you search the web for information and understanding about the effects of child abuse.


Potential Long-Term Effects of the Sexual Abuse of Males
This indicates GUESSWORK.
This is not science.


This section lists potential, but not inevitable, lasting effects of the sexual abuse of male children. It should not be read as a "laundry list" of problems and symptoms that necessarily follow the sexual abuse of males, nor does the presence of any in males with sexual abuse histories necessarily mean the abuse is their primary cause. (See above.)

Findings on the long-term effects of child sexual abuse in males have been more consistent than those on prevalence. Methodologies for detecting problems and symptoms that could be outcomes are relatively straightforward, and many studies have utilized standardized measures that are widely accepted in the field.

First, I want to recommend a paper by David Lisak, Ph.D. This paper contains many powerful quotations from interviews with male survivors of sexual abuse. Lisak groups the quotations into themes, and discusses them with remarkable insight and compassion. The themes are:
Note that this only recommends his favorite reading matter,
not objective findings in victims.



* Anger
* Fear
* Homosexuality Issues
* Helplessness
* Isolation and Alienation
* Legitimacy
* Loss
* Masculinity Issues
* Negative Childhood Peer Relations
* Negative Schemas about People
* Negative Schemas about the Self
* Problems with Sexuality
* Self Blame/Guilt
* Shame/Humiliation

One man emailed me to share this experience: "reading [Lisak's article] was the first time I realized that other people have the same issues I have. I sat in the library and cried when I read that article. Not the usual reaction to scholarly research, but I'm sure Prof. Lisak wouldn't mind" (used with permission).

Lisak, D. (1994). The psychological impact of sexual abuse: Content analysis of interviews with male survivors. Journal of Traumatic Stress, 7, 525-548.

Using standardized measures of symptoms, researchers have found that men who were sexually abused in childhood, whether or not they seek out mental health services, may suffer from:
MAY ??
I may get elected President in 2012,
but that theoretical possibility gives us little reliable information.


* Anxiety
* Depression
* Dissociation
* Hostility and anger
* Impaired relationships
* Low self-esteem
* Sexual dysfunction
* Sleep disturbance
* Suicidal ideas and behavior

The following researchers have used standardized measures and found different combinations of the above symptoms:

* Bagley, Wood, & Young, 1994
* Briere, Evans, Runtz, & Wall, 1988
* Collings, 1995
* Fromuth & Burkhart, 1989
* Hunter, 1991
* Olson, 1990
* Peters & Range, 1995

Therapists working with men who were sexually abused in childhood have conducted clinical case studies and consistently reported findings on long-term problems including:

* Guilt and self-blame

Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989; Hunter, 1990.

* Low self-esteem and negative self-image

Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989.

* Problems with intimacy

Bruckner & Johnson, 1987; Dimock, 1988; Lew, 1988; Krug, 1989; Hunter, 1990.

* Sexual problems, compulsions, or dysfunctions

Bruckner & Johnson, 1987; Johnson & Shrier, 1987; Dimock, 1988; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989; Hunter, 1990.

* Substance abuse and depression

Krug, 1989.

* Symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder

Myers, 1989.

Some of the long-term effects of sexual abuse are related to the development of gender identity. A number of clinicians' case studies indicate that male survivors of childhood sexual abuse may experience:

* Attempts to "prove" their masculinity by having multiple female sexual partners, sexually victimizing others, and/or engaging in dangerous or violent behaviors

Bruckner & Johnson, 1987; Lew 1988.

* Confusion over their gender and sexual identities

Nasjleti, 1980; Bruckner & Johnson, 1987; Johnson & Shrier, 1987; Dimock, 1988; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989; Gilgun & Reiser, 1990.

* Sense of being inadequate as men

Dimock, 1988; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989; Pierce & Pierce, 1985.

* Sense of lost power, control, and confidence in their manhood

Myers, 1989.

Finally, some clinicians have noted that sexually abused males often experience confusion and distress about their sexuality:

* Confusion about their own sexual orientation

Nasjleti, 1980; Dimock, 1988; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989; Gilgun & Reiser, 1990.

* Fear that the sexual abuse has caused or will cause them to become homosexual

Nasjleti, 1980; Finkelhor, 1984; Dimock, 1988; Gilgun & Reiser, 1990; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989.

* Homophobia, an irrational fear or intolerance of homosexuality

Gilgun & Reiser, 1990; Lew, 1988; Myers, 1989.


Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 12:18 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
dave, now you are boring, wrong, and hurting my eyes with all your damn red type.

what's next in your civil gentlemanliness?
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 12:23 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
For a Mensan, you sure are an idiot.
 

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