Was Cleopatra Black?

@Thomas,

Quote:

Reality isn't about what makes you happy. It's about what's true. You are not entitled to a historic reality that makes you happy; none of us is. (Dagmaraka put it best in the post that became my signature line.) But if you prefer not to face reality as it is, if you prefer to believe in myths that make you happy instead -- then fine, suit yourself!

And yet, Thomas, you are more than willing to believe in the prescriptive myths about the English language. Why would that be?

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It is instructive to read the opinions of on expert on ancient cultures-Dr. Mary Lefkowitz- She wrote( in her book, "Not Out of Africa"-subtitled--"How Afrocentrism Became an Excuse to Teach Myth as History"

"Because questions like "Was Cleopatra Black?" are asked for cultural reasons, the only respectable responses will be culturally rather than factually correct:
"Yes, she was black because she MIGHT have had an Egyptian ancestor, and because as a black she COULD represent the fate of Africa under European oppression"
Myth had now taken precedence over reality, even in the academy. Clearly the proponents of ethnic history do not foresee what will happen if other groups, of whom they do not approve, start writing their own histories according to their own notions of ethnic correctness.

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@marsz,

I suspect that the question stems from some blacks and multiculturalists need to justify the black race....as in "see, black people have been notable in history".

These folks care whole lot more about race than I do.

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

And yet, Thomas, you are more than willing to believe in the prescriptive myths about the English language. Why would that be?

I can't answer this question, because I think its premise is wrong. I disagree that prescriptive linguists are, ipso facto, peddling myths.

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@JTT,

Quote:

I can't answer this question, because I think its premise is wrong. I disagree that prescriptive linguists are, ipso facto, peddling myths.

I suppose it's possible that you can't, Thomas, but that would be mostly because you're not willing to try. In fact, forgive me, you seem afraid to try. I've never seen you - a highly intelligent fella - exit a discussion faster than the one on language.

Your "disagreement" is no more credible than what you pointed up as Ebrown's "failings"; "You are not entitled to a historic reality that makes you happy; none of us is".

I'm sure all of us have it in one respect or another, but it puzzles me why you seem so bent on believing a series of falsehoods.

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@Lightwizard,

Lightwizard wrote:

Cleo in HBO's "Rome:"

Man, that mop looks like it came off a roll at Ace Hardware, circa .50/ft.

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@roger,

HBO turn the lady black?

Are not films concerning history suppose to have a history expert or two on the payroll as a matter of course?

If they did I would love to see the memos that was written over a black Cleopatra!

Does anyone had a copy of this movie with the credits to see if they listed a history expert in them?

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@JTT,

JTT wrote:

In fact, forgive me,

I forgive you. Anytime!

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@BillRM,

Jonathan Stamp was the historical adviser.

And Cleopatra in the (screen shots of the ) film ...

.. does look, indeed, like someone from around Meditarrenean Sea.

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@roger,

Shame on you the HBO website does not show a black actress as Cleopatra!

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@Thomas,

The fear seems much deeper than I imagined, Thomas. Why?

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Alexander the Great had his officers and soldiers marry locals to bring Greek culture to his Empire. This would have embedded Greekness (Macedonian) into his Empire. He died young around 32 or 33 and his Empire split four ways each going to one of his generals. After Alexander's death there is a blank if they kept marrying locals.

1 Reply

@talk72000,

After Alexander's death there is a blank if they kept marrying locals.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The record is more then clear that the Ptolemy line did not intermarried with the local population and even interbreed with brother/sister marriages.

So I do not know where your so call blanks come from!

Oh Cleopatra was the first of her line that was able to speak something other then Greek even.

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@BillRM,

If the Ptolemies were interbreeding then they were merely aping the Egyptian Pharoahs who did just that as they believed that they were demigods and needed to keep their godliness to themselves and thus their bloodline to the throne. It was not a case of Divine Right to Rule but that they were gods themselves as they descended from gods.

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@talk72000,

Interbreeding was more for the purpose of reducing the family lines and therefore reducing the great likelihood of civil war as power pass from one generation to another.

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@BillRM,

Wikipedia on Cleopatra VII - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra_VII

Her bust-

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Kleopatra-VII.-Altes-Museum-Berlin1.jpg/175px-Kleopatra-VII.-Altes-Museum-Berlin1.jpg

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I have seen many pictures of the coins depicting Cleopatra VII. I don't think they accurately show her features well after all if the coins are not even circular a simple geometric shape how accurate can the profile be of Cleopatra. It depends very much on the skill and artistry of the mint sculptor. They must have used many sculptors as the coin profiles vary from ugly masculine features to more effeminate ones.

Another bust -

http://www.fieldmuseum.org/cleopatra/photos/ptolemaic_th.gif

http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/thumbnail/cleopatra_507.jpg

http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/thumbnail/cleopatra_8507.jpg

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I checked and indeed there was intermarriages as Greek soldiers took Egyptian wives. The Egyptians at that time probably the same people as Greeks as they traded with each other and considered Alexander the Great as a liberator. It was the Arab conquest that may have changed the population complexion. The Ptolemies allowed Arabs to live in Egypt before Romans appeared on the scene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ptolemaic_Egypt

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@talk72000,

Having some low level soldiers intermarrying and the royal line doing so is completely another subject.

That royal line breeding is a matter of detail records and is not open to great questions anymore then where Obama birth place can be question except for people who do not care about facts and have their own axes to grind.

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@BillRM,

Like famous distinguished scholar etc prf gates says, our words spoken by colored people don't mean the same things
so yo mamma is yoruba for thank you officer, cleopatra is black is yoruba too.

Quote:

. If you hear the word used by a black person, chances are you'll need something more than a dictionary to understand what the speaker means. The word ''signifying'' is situated where Henry Louis Gates Jr. in his new book situates the critic of comparative black literature, ''at a sort of crossroads, a discursive crossroads at which two languages meet, be these languages Yoruba and English, or Spanish and French, or even (perhaps especially) the black vernacular and standard English.''

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Was Cleopatra Black?

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