Guns: how much longer will it take ....

@edgarblythe,

edgarblythe wrote:

The local ABC news station tried the backpacks. A gun like the one used in the most recent killings shot right through it.

I guess that answers the "soft armor verses steel plates" question.

Although once we end the laws against AP rifle ammo. even steel plates will do no good against rifles.

On the other hand, AP ammo will be much less deadly. Narrow straight-through wounds. No bullets exploding and causing vast tissue damage. They can still kill of course. But many more victims will survive.

Don't knock the usefulness of Kevlar however. It doesn't work against centerfire rifles. It does work against handguns, shotguns, and rimfire rifles.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

Nice. You do realize, don't you, that in the context of this discussion and the shootings of the last week, you have calmly and cold-bloodedly compared the relative merits of two types of ammunition for killing schoolchildren? .

1 Reply

@MontereyJack,

It was more of a comment on the merits of armor for protecting schoolchildren.

0 Replies

@MontereyJack,

Quote:

And they want Congress to get off the pot and actually DO somethin about it.

And do what about it?

1 Reply

https://scontent.fhou1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/28058408_2406510462711726_6633859422495235245_n.png?oh=50d7a4d7b688962c94aedb2ec4d88d4d&oe=5B4E45A0

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@Glennn,

Google Emma Gonzalez and look at her video now gone viral "We Call BS" She'd make a better senator from Florida than Marco Rubio if only she weren't still underage

2 Replies

@MontereyJack,

My question to you was: And do what about it?

1 Reply

@Glennn,

A good start would be to bring back the assault weapons ban.

GUN MASSACRES
Is It Time To Bring Back The Assault Weapons Ban?

Quote:

The death toll in the Parkland school shooting counts it among the deadliest gun massacres in U.S. history. It's the sixth school shooting incident already this year where students have been killed or wounded and it's the deadliest since the Sandy Hook massacre in 2012. After the Parkland shooting, it emerged that the perpetrator purchased his AR-15 assault rifle legally. That weapon and others like it were once banned under U.S. law and there are growing calls for a reintroduction of that legislation.

The AR-15 is a civilian version of the military grade M16 and M4 family of rifles that are designed to deliver small sized bullets at high velocity in order to inflict catastrophic and lethal wounds. Whether these weapons actually serve a purpose on today's civilian market is a valid question. What is certain is that they have been used in a string of mass shootings including the church shooting in Sutherland Springs, Texas last November, Las Vegas last October and the Pulse nightclub in Orlando in 2016.

Louis Klarevas of the University of Massachusetts at Boston says that "you would see drastic reductions in what I call gun massacres” if the 1994 federal assault weapons ban was reinstated. In his book "Rampage Nation", he defines a gun massacre as a shooting incident in which six or more people are shot and killed. He collected data on every gun massacre for the 50 years before 2016 and he found that the number of incidents fell during the assault weapons ban between 1994 and 2004.

According to some of his findings which were published by the Washington Post, gun massacres fell 37 percent during the ban period and in the ten years after it lapsed in 2004, they went up an alarming 183 percent. Klarevas points out that the ban on high-capacity magazines holding more than 10 rounds made a huge difference. He says that if that is regulated, there will be a considerable drop in massacres and fatalities.

https://infographic.statista.com/normal/chartoftheday_12943_is_it_time_to_bring_back_the_assault_weapons_ban_n.jpg

3 Replies

@revelette1,

Quote:

In statistics, many statistical tests calculate correlations between variables and when two variables are found to be correlated, it is tempting to assume that this shows that one variable causes the other.[1][2] That "correlation proves causation," is considered a questionable cause logical fallacy when two events occurring together are taken to have established a cause-and-effect relationship. This fallacy is also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "with this, therefore because of this," and "false cause." A similar fallacy, that an event that followed another was necessarily a consequence of the first event, is the post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin for "after this, therefore because of this.") fallacy.

plink

0 Replies

Code:

	                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Year  	Population  	Total 	         Violent  	Property  	Murder  	Rape  	       Robbery  	assault  	Burglary  	Theft  	       Theft 

1980  	225,349,264  	13,408,300  	1,344,520  	12,063,700  	23,040  	82,990  	565,840  	672,650  	3,795,200  	7,136,900  	1,131,700 

1981  	229,146,000  	13,423,800  	1,361,820  	12,061,900  	22,520  	82,500  	592,910  	663,900  	3,779,700  	7,194,400  	1,087,800 

1982  	231,534,000  	12,974,400  	1,322,390  	11,652,000  	21,010  	78,770  	553,130  	669,480  	3,447,100  	7,142,500  	1,062,400 

1983  	233,981,000  	12,108,600  	1,258,090  	10,850,500  	19,310  	78,920  	506,570  	653,290  	3,129,900  	6,712,800  	1,007,900 

1984  	236,158,000  	11,881,800  	1,273,280  	10,608,500 	18,690  	84,230  	485,010  	685,350  	2,984,400  	6,591,900  	1,032,200 

1985  	238,740,000  	12,431,400  	1,328,800  	11,102,600  	18,980  	88,670  	497,870  	723,250  	3,073,300  	6,926,400  	1,102,900

1986  	240,132,887  	13,211,869  	1,489,169  	11,722,700  	20,613  	91,459  	542,775  	834,322  	3,241,410  	7,257,153  	1,224,137 

1987  	242,282,918  	13,508,700  	1,483,999  	12,024,700  	20,096  	91,110  	517,704  	855,088  	3,236,184  	7,499,900  	1,288,674 

1988  	245,807,000  	13,923,100  	1,566,220  	12,356,900  	20,680  	92,490  	542,970  	910,090  	3,218,100  	7,705,900  	1,432,900 

1989  	248,239,000  	14,251,400  	1,646,040  	12,605,400  	21,500  	94,500  	578,330  	951,710  	3,168,200  	7,872,400  	1,564,800 

	

Year  	Population  	   Total        Violent          Property  	Murder  	Rape  	        Robbery  	assault  	  Burglary  	Theft  	      Theft 

1990  	248,709,873  	14,475,600  	1,820,130  	12,655,500  	23,440  	102,560  	639,270  	1,054,860  	3,073,900  	7,945,700  	1,635,900 

1991  	252,177,000  	14,872,900  	1,911,770  	12,961,100  	24,700  	106,590  	687,730 	1,092,740  	3,157,200  	8,142,200  	1,661,700 

1992  	255,082,000  	14,438,200  	1,932,270  	12,505,900  	23,760  	109,060  	672,480  	1,126,970  	2,979,900  	7,915,200  	1,610,800 

1993  	257,908,000  	14,144,800  	1,926,020  	12,218,800  	24,530  	106,010  	659,870  	1,135,610  	2,834,800  	7,820,900  	1,563,100 

1994  	260,341,000  	13,989,500  	1,857,670  	12,131,900  	23,330  	102,220  	618,950  	1,113,180  	2,712,800  	7,879,800  	1,539,300 

1995  	262,755,000  	13,862,700  	1,798,790  	12,063,900  	21,610  	97,470  	580,510  	1,099,210  	2,593,800  	7,997,700  	1,472,400 

1996  	265,228,572  	13,493,863  	1,688,540  	11,805,300  	19,650  	96,250  	535,590  	1,037,050  	2,506,400  	7,904,700  	1,394,200 

1997  	267,637,000  	13,194,571  	1,634,770  	11,558,175  	18,208  	96,153  	498,534  	1,023,201  	2,460,526  	7,743,760  	1,354,189 

1998  	270,296,000  	12,475,634  	1,531,044  	10,944,590  	16,914  	93,103  	446,625  	974,402  	2,329,950  	7,373,886  	1,240,754 

1999  	272,690,813  	11,634,378  	1,426,044  	10,208,334  	15,522  	89,411 	        409,371  	911,740  	2,100,739  	6,955,520  	1,152,075 



Year  	Population  	   Total      Violent  	        Property  	Murder  	 Rape  	        Robbery  	assault  	Burglary  	   Theft  	     Theft 

2000  	281,421,906  	11,608,072  	1,425,486  	10,182,586  	15,586  	90,178  	408,016  	911,706  	2,050,992  	6,971,590  	1,160,002 

2001  	285,317,559  	11,876,669  	1,439,480  	10,437,480  	16,037  	90,863  	423,557  	909,023  	2,116,531  	7,092,267  	1,228,391 

2002  	287,973,924  	11,878,954 	1,423,677  	10,455,277  	16,229  	95,235  	420,806  	891,407  	2,151,252  	7,057,370  	1,246,646 

2003  	290,690,788  	11,826,538 	1,383,676  	10,442,862  	16,528  	93,883 	       414,235  	859,030  	2,154,834  	7,026,802  	1,261,226 

2004  	293,656,842  	11,679,474 	1,360,088  	10,319,386  	16,148  	95,089  	401,470  	847,381  	2,144,446  	6,937,089  	1,237,851 

2005  	296,507,061  	11,565,499 	1,390,745  	10,174,754  	16,740  	94,347  	417,438  	862,220 	2,155,448  	6,783,447  	1,235,859 

2006  	299,398,484  	11,401,511 	1,418,043  	9,983,568  	17,030  	92,757  	447,403  	860,853  	2,183,746  	6,607,013  	1,192,809 

2007  	301,621,157  	11,251,828 	1,408,337  	9,843,481  	16,929  	90,427  	445,125  	855,856  	2,176,140  	6,568,572  	1,095,769 

2008  	304,374,846  	11,160,543 	1,392,628  	9,767,915  	16,442  	90,479  	443,574  	842,134  	2,228,474  	6,588,046 	958,629 

2009  	307,006,550  	10,762,956 	1,325,896  	9,337,060  	15,399  	89,241  	408,742 	812,514 	2,203,313 	6,338,095  	795,652



Year  	Population  	   Total 	  Violent  	Property  	Murder  	Rape  	Robbery  	assault  	Burglary  	Theft  	          Theft 

2010 	309,330,219 	10,363,873 	1,251,248 	9,112,625 	14,772 	        85,593 	369,089 	781,844 	2,168,457 	6,204,601 	739,565

2011 	311,587,816 	10,258,774 	1,206,031 	9,052,743 	14,661 	        84,175 	354,772 	752,423 	2,185,140 	6,151,095 	716,508

2012 	313,873,685 	10,219,059 	1,217,067 	9,001,992 	14,866 	        85,141 	355,051 	762,009 	2,109,932 	6,168,874 	723,186

2013 	316,497,531 	9,850,445 	1,199,684 	8,650,761 	14,319 	        82,109 	345,095 	726,575 	1,931,835 	6,018,632 	700,294

2014 	318,907,401 	9,395,195 	1,186,185 	8,209,010 	14,164 	        84,864 	322,905 	731,089 	1,713,153 	5,809,054 	686,803

2015 	320,896,618 	9,258,298 	1,234,183 	8,024,115 	15,883 	       91,261 	328,109 	764,057 	1,587,564 	5,723,488 	713,063

2016 	323,127,513 	9,202,093 	1,283,058 	7,919,035 	17,250 	        95,730 	332,198 	803,007 	1,515,096 	5,638,455 	765,484

Statistics

Where is that dip in violence when "assault weapons" were banned...

1 Reply

@McGentrix,

Quote:

Where is that dip in violence when "assault weapons" were banned...

"[Klarevas] collected data on every gun massacre for the 50 years before 2016 and he found that the number of incidents fell during the assault weapons ban between 1994 and 2004."

Where's the specific column for "U.S. Gun Massacres and Fatalities"?

EDIT: Looking over the statistics on school massacres and mass shootings in this period I see that while the fatalities are shocking they might only amount to two hundred to three hundred a year while the total number of murders could be between sixteen to twenty thousand which wouldn't show up as a big drop in the aggregate.

1 Reply

@hightor,

It's an arbitrary statistic that is being used to falsely show a decrease in deaths by banning a scary weapon. Statistics, when used in such an arbitrary way can be massaged to demonstrate anything.

It's a meaningless statistic.

1 Reply

@revelette1,

Quote:

A good start would be to bring back the assault weapons ban.

If you're talking about automatic rifles, sure. But I'm talking about my right to own a handgun or a rifle.

1 Reply

@MontereyJack,

Quote:

Google Emma Gonzalez and look at her video now gone viral

I was actually hoping to get you to speak for yourself.

0 Replies

@McGentrix,

Quote:

It's an arbitrary statistic...

I'm not so sure. Something led to a significant decrease from the previous decade and a nearly 300% increase after the ban. What's really meaningless is your attempt to promote your beliefs using statistics which don't apply to the specific claim in question.

2 Replies

@hightor,

Frightened men grasping at straws only look for evidence that supports their viewpoint and will twist anything to fit that narrative.

When I had a similar argument with McGentrix he kept going on about Derrick Bird's rampage in Cumbria in June 2010. The fact that we've not had one since makes no difference to that mindset.

I can't imagine how scared people like that must be, they let gun ownership define them because there's not much else.

Gun violence can never be eradicated totally, but since our laws were tightened up following the Dunblane atrocity in 1996 the Cumbria incident is the only mass shooting we've suffered.

One in the best part of 22 years compared with 18 in America in this year alone.

2 Replies

@revelette1,

revelette1 wrote:

A good start would be to bring back the assault weapons ban.

Unless you can state a good reason for banning pistol grips, you are calling to violate people's civil rights for no good reason.

Shame on you.

Although, the reason why the NRA found it so easy to completely defeat all proposals during the 2013 gun control debacle is because the left self-sabotaged by fighting to the death over banning pistol grips. It makes it much easier to defeat legislation when it is a wacky proposal that serves no purpose. And then they had no energy left to push other proposals after that their ban on pistol grips was defeated.

Restricting our rights without any justification also makes it inevitable that a law will be struck down by the courts if it does manage to pass.

So feel free to sabotage any current gun control effort as well.

I suspect that one day in the future the NRA will erect a statue in honor to those who sabotaged gun control efforts with their obsession for banning pistol grips.

0 Replies

@Glennn,

Glennn wrote:

If you're talking about automatic rifles, sure. But I'm talking about my right to own a handgun or a rifle.

"Assault weapon" doesn't mean full-auto in America. They are talking about bans on pistol grips and other cosmetic features.

1 Reply

@oralloy,

I know. It's an argument based on hysteria.

0 Replies

@hightor,

hightor wrote:

I'm not so sure. Something led to a significant decrease from the previous decade and a nearly 300% increase after the ban. What's really meaningless is your attempt to promote your beliefs using statistics which don't apply to the specific claim in question.

Be serious. Pistol grips don't make people choose to go on killing sprees.

1 Reply

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

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