57
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 01:02 pm
@dyslexia,
dyslexia wrote:

ok, I give up, what's your first language?


What does it matter?

If you can understand PrezBO's stuttering and stammering without a teleprompter, you can easily understand BillRM.
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 01:11 pm
@H2O MAN,
Being compare to Bush! Lord my head is hanging in shame.
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 01:18 pm
@H2O MAN,
Did you also hear the Washington fools did not allow the airborne troops to have bullets for their rifles!!

Some of the gangs in the Homestead and Florida city area gave them a hard time as a result.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 01:23 pm
@BillRM,
BillRM wrote:

Did you also hear the Washington fools did not allow the airborne troops to have bullets for their rifles!!

Some of the gangs in the Homestead and Florida city area gave them a hard time as a result.



Yes!

That was insane!
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 03:06 pm
@Advocate,
"Advocate" wrote:
Quote:
I don't agree with the court
that the second amendment gives everyone the right to bear.

Most respectfully, Advocate,
u r mischaracterizing the holdings of the USSC.
The Court has agreed with u, at least 2ice.

In US v. CRUIKSHANK 92 US 542 (1875)
The US Supreme Court held that the rights
of the 1st and 2nd Amendments long antedated the Constitution
,
such that when created, the US government found them in being.
Accordingly, these rights are older than the Constitution,
which neither created nor granted them to the citizenry,
any more than the Constitution created the moon nor granted the stars.

In D.C. v. HELLER, 554 US 290 (2008) the USSC upheld its precedent in CRUIKSHANK and added that:
"c. Meaning of the Operative Clause.

Putting all of these textual elements together,
we find that they guarantee the individual right
to possess and carry weapons in case of confrontation.
This meaning is strongly confirmed by the historical background
of the Second Amendment.

We look to this because it has always been widely understood
that the Second Amendment, like the First and Fourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right.

The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes
the pre-existence of the right and declares only that
it “shall not be infringed.”

As we said in United States v.Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876),
“[t]his is not a right granted by the Constitution.
Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence.
The Second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed. ...”
[all emphasis added by David]


Quote:
However, the court recently ruled against me.
Moreover, one must consider that guns are everywhere,
and it is silly to be an unarmed martyr.

SO STIPULATED





David
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 03:20 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
I'm puzzled by your post. My position has always been that 2A gives the right to bear only in the context of a well-regulated militia. This view was that of the court in Miller.

The recent Heller decision, which is results based, holds that the right to bear is unfettered, exclusive of a militia. The Heller decision is, for now, the law of the land.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 03:43 pm
@Advocate,
"Advocate" wrote:
Quote:
I'm puzzled by your post.

This saddens me; I was trying to be lucid.
If u have the time, will u look at it again ?




Quote:
My position has always been that 2A gives the right to bear
only in the context of a well-regulated militia.

That was indeed your position.
I 'm not sure how the theory of that works; its function ?

Does that mean that Ike violated 2A
when he federalized George Wallace 's National Guard ?



Quote:
This view was that of the court in Miller.

I must dissent from that opinion.
The USSC merely remanded the case to the trial ct.
to take more evidence qua whether the sawn off shotgun
was a weapon, of possible use to a militia,
in that mutilated condition, in that 2A only protects
the right to possess WEAPONS, not useless junk.
Defendants were never seen again; lost by default.
The trial court was reversed as to its having taken judicial notice
that a sawn off shotgun is a weapon after the amputation.




Quote:
The recent Heller decision, which is results based,

The USSC was meticulously analytical, carefully examining
the grammar of the text, as well as its known history.
Since we KNOW that the Founders were libertarian gun lovers,
that does not come as a surprize.


Quote:
holds that the right to bear is unfettered, exclusive of a militia.
The Heller decision is, for now, the law of the land.

With good reason





David
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 09:09 pm
@OmSigDAVID,
Dave, please excuse me, but I currently don't have time to reinvolve myself with 2A issues. It would be useless in any event because Heller is dispositive on the right to bear issue.
parados
 
  2  
Reply Fri 10 Apr, 2009 09:14 pm
@Advocate,
Actually, Heller is the law of DC which is a special case since it is a Federally controlled area. The only such area outside of a state.

There is still the issue of states rights and whether states can control guns which is not resolved.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2009 03:23 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

Dave, please excuse me, but I currently don't have time to reinvolve myself with 2A issues.
It would be useless in any event because Heller is dispositive on the right to bear issue.

Of course, Ad; I wish u success in the real world.





David
0 Replies
 
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2009 07:36 am
@parados,
The Bill of Rights also apply to the states. Thus, Heller is fully applicable outside of DC.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2009 07:47 am
@Advocate,


Are you going gun shopping today?
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Apr, 2009 09:22 am
@parados,
parados wrote:

Actually, Heller is the law of DC which is a special case since it is a Federally controlled area.
The only such area outside of a state.

There is still the issue of states rights and whether states
can control guns which is not resolved.


It coud be possible that u might gleen some insight
into the thought processes of the USSC concerning
curtailing any power of the States, by these snippets
from the HELLER case:

Note that the Court cites, with approval,
to its precedent in United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U. S. 259, 265 (1990):
“ ‘[T]he people’ seems to have been a term of art
employed in select parts of the Constitution... .
[Its uses] sugges[t] that ‘the people’ protected by the
Fourth Amendment, and by the First and Second Amendments,
and to whom rights and powers are reserved
in the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, refers to
a class of persons who are part of a national community
or who have otherwise developed sufficient connection
with this country to be considered part of that community.”

. . .

"We start therefore with a strong presumption that
the Second Amendment right is exercised individually
and belongs to all Americans"



"The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes
the pre-existence of the right and declares only that
it 'shall not be infringed.' "



Note that the Court cites, with approval,
to “judge and professor Thomas Cooley, who wrote
a massively popular 1868 Treatise on Constitutional
Limitations
. Concerning the Second Amendment it said:
‘Among the other defences to personal liberty
should be mentioned the right of the people to keep
and bear arms
. . . .



The USSC also cites to Judge Cooley for support of its decision,
in his General Principles of Constitutional Law (1880)
“The meaning of the provision undoubtedly is,
that the people, from whom the militia must be taken,
shall have the right to keep and bear arms;
and they need no permission or regulation of law for the purpose.


[All emphasis was added by David.]
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 07:43 am
@High Seas,
High Seas wrote:

.................Note to Ms Olga -" how much longer will it take" for guns to what, exactly? Your original post wasn't all that clear Smile


Re-posting my question to the lady who started this thread, and hoping for the courtesy of a reply!
Advocate
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 08:24 am
@H2O MAN,
It is a big decision for me to get a gun. I am still weighing the pros and cons.

I don't need one for guarding my home inasmuch I live in a gated community that has virtually no crime. But it may be a good thing to have when I hit the road.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 08:28 am
@Advocate,
Or when society breaks down and tears down those gates.
0 Replies
 
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 08:43 am
@Advocate,
Advocate wrote:

It is a big decision for me to get a gun. I am still weighing the pros and cons.

I don't need one for guarding my home inasmuch I live in a gated community that has virtually no crime. But
it may be a good thing to have when I hit the road.

YES.
At the risk of being too redundant:
Its better to HAVE a gun and not NEED one,
than to NEED a gun and not HAVE one; like any other emergency equipment.

Come back from your road trips in robustly good health (WITH your property)
to tell me how foolish I have been.





David
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 08:45 am
@Advocate,
Quote:
It is a big decision for me to get A gun.


I'll let you in on a secret here.... Firearms are habit forming. I don't really know anybody who owns "a" gun.
OmSigDAVID
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 09:03 am
@gungasnake,
gungasnake wrote:

Quote:
It is a big decision for me to get A gun.


I'll let you in on a secret here.... Firearms are habit forming.
I don't really know anybody who owns "a" gun.

I 'LL STIPULATE TO THAT!
DAVID


After reaching some point in your gun collection,
its no longer a matter of security that impels expansion of your collection.





David
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Mon 13 Apr, 2009 11:51 am
@OmSigDAVID,
OmSigDAVID wrote:

After reaching some point in your gun collection,
its no longer a matter of security that impels expansion of your collection.



It is habit forming, but it's never been about security for me... I just like them.
 

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