53
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
Baldimo
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 10:41 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Fixing wounds doesn't entitle you to craft Constitutional policy and limit rights. There are about 1.1 million doctors in the US and a minimum of 250,000 medical malpractice deaths per year. There are 300 million guns in the US and about 60k total deaths from guns per year. Looking at the numbers, it looks like Doctors are more deadly to people than guns are.
McGentrix
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 11:58 am
@farmerman,
Are these the same Doctors that have over prescribed opiates to the point it's now considered an epidemic?
izzythepush
 
  5  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 12:53 pm
https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--Ra0FL7kW--/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/oqglyaxjawfkfgus368v.png

The actions of the NRA go way beyond supporting the second amendment. This is Tamara O'Neal murdered in Chicago yesterday. both Baldimo and McGentrix are now justifying her murder because she's a doctor.

This is what the Nazis used to do to justify their murders. This is how it starts, they now think they should be allowed to shoot anyone who doesn't think like them. You don't even need to have said anything about gun control, membership of a profession that spoke about it is all it takes.
Below viewing threshold (view)
farmerman
 
  5  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 01:54 pm
@McGentrix,
Quote:


Are these the same Doctors that have over prescribed opiates to the point it's now considered an epidemic?
Dont know , possibly, physicians, being human, are capable of making mistakes. Thats a whole nother planetoid away from the evil, calculated acts of mass murder, not done to alleviate pain"
I like your grasp at analogies, usually all wet , but spoken at the top of your voice.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 03:02 pm
@McGentrix,
From what i have heard""it was Big Pharma who ran the clinical trials which show safety snd efficacy which heavily underplsyed the potential for addiction. As far as the docs knew they were just alleviating pain.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 03:25 pm
@McGentrix,
McGentrix wrote:
How about this? I won't go to the doctor for gun advice and you don't go to the range for medical advice?
This sums up perfectly the folly of listening to a few nutty doctors who presume to speak for their entire profession about an issue where they have no competence.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 03:34 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
McGentrix wrote:
How about this? I won't go to the doctor for gun advice and you don't go to the range for medical advice?
inaccurate analogy.
It's a perfect analogy. These nutcase doctors don't speak for their entire profession, and they have no special competence in the civil rights arena.

farmerman wrote:
Its public health advice
That is incorrect. Anti-freedom propaganda has nothing to do with public health.

farmerman wrote:
and you guys are keeping your heads warm cloacally if you dont see the relevance.
We don't see the relevance because there is no relevance.

farmerman wrote:
Triage in a mass shooting is a medical realm , NRA has no business there,
The NRA has not tried to advise doctors on how to treat injured people.

farmerman wrote:
The docs are making xtra valid logic.
Not really. The doctors are babbling ignorant gibberish.

farmerman wrote:
You dont see many mass shootings with .70-NITRO Weatherbees, or .45-70's.
So all of these doctors' hysteria over the greater damage done by rifle rounds is just hysteria.

farmerman wrote:
You only see rapid fire semi auto long and short barrel weapons. Its a delivery isue, thats what needs control.
Take it up with the gun control movement. They are the ones who sabotage magazine capacity restrictions and make the fight all about pistol grips.

farmerman wrote:
The NRA was successful for several years to get the CDC from even reporting gun deaths in their CONGRESSIONALLY MANDATED responsibilities to record and analyze all causes of death in the US.
Why did the NRA mount a complete PR battle against the nation even knowing about these numbers???
Because the CDC is supposed to be protecting us from deadly diseases, not wasting taxpayer money publishing anti-freedom propaganda.

farmerman wrote:
HYPOCRISY?? yah
No.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 03:35 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
I'm talking about the gun suckers who are trying to get the good doctors to shut up.
If any rural doctors try to indoctrinate their patients with an anti-freedom agenda, they'll find themselves without any patients.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 03:36 pm
@Olivier5,
Olivier5 wrote:
For fear of the truth that "sets you free". The NRA wants you guys ignorant, afraid and easily manipulated.
That is incorrect. All the NRA wants is to protect our civil rights.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 03:37 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
Another school shooting every week or so. Now we're getting a a hospital shooting every week or so. And a business shooting every week or so. Tell me again, oralloy, how those are gun users defending their civil right to use guns for self-defense.
Murder is not self defense. It is a crime. I expect that the shooters will be prosecuted if they still live.
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 03:47 pm
@izzythepush,
What a load of crap, got any more lies to tell to your echo chamber?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 03:49 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:
Fixing wounds doesn't entitle you to craft Constitutional policy and limit rights.
Exactly.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 03:51 pm
@izzythepush,
izzythepush wrote:
The actions of the NRA go way beyond supporting the second amendment.
The NRA also does gun safety classes.

izzythepush wrote:
This is Tamara O'Neal murdered in Chicago yesterday. both Baldimo and McGentrix are now justifying her murder
No they aren't. Why do you have to lie about people all the time?
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 06:15 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I expect that the shooters will be prosecuted if they still live.
Prosecuting the shooter does absoluyrly NO good to the people he murdered. They are still dead. The idea is to STOP THE SHOOTINGS FROM HAPPENING IN THE FIRST PLAACE. And you have never made any attempt to figure out a way to stop them or even reduce numder. All you seem to care about is ensuring that the shooters have their free choice of guns.
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 06:26 pm
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
All you seem to care about is ensuring that the shooters have their free choice of guns.

All you seem to care about is that only criminals will have guns. And the citizen defenseless.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 07:17 pm
@MontereyJack,
I have discussed preventive measures before.

It is the gun control movement that has never shown any interest in saving lives. All they care about is violating people's rights for fun.
0 Replies
 
sceletera
 
  5  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 11:02 pm
@Baldimo,
Baldimo wrote:

Fixing wounds doesn't entitle you to craft Constitutional policy and limit rights. There are about 1.1 million doctors in the US and a minimum of 250,000 medical malpractice deaths per year. There are 300 million guns in the US and about 60k total deaths from guns per year. Looking at the numbers, it looks like Doctors are more deadly to people than guns are.


There are so many factual and logical errors in this post, I don't think I can begin to respond to them all.
Quote:
Fixing wounds doesn't entitle you to craft Constitutional policy and limit rights
You seem to imply that owning a gun does allow you to craft Constitutional policy. Certainly doctors have as much right as gun owners do. Shouldn't both sides be entitled to state their opinions?

Quote:
There are about 1.1 million doctors in the US and a minimum of 250,000 medical malpractice deaths per year.
This sentence is factually untrue. You didn't bother to look at anything to do with the study. It specifically states "The researchers caution that most of medical errors aren’t due to inherently bad doctors, and that reporting these errors shouldn’t be addressed by punishment or legal action. Rather, they say, most errors represent systemic problems, including poorly coordinated care, fragmented insurance networks, the absence or underuse of safety nets, and other protocols, in addition to unwarranted variation in physician practice patterns that lack accountability."
Facts from the study: - 1. Doctors are not responsible for most of the deaths due to medical errors. 2. Most of the deaths due to medical errors are not malpractice but a result of failures of systems put in place. 3. Many of the deaths are caused by persons other than doctors such as nurses, pharmacy techs, data entry personnel that enter the wrong data, etc. Your own link uses the story of a young girl who died due to an error by a pharmacy tech. Pharmacy techs are not doctors.

There is no evidence of doctors causing 250,000 medical malpractice deaths per year. According to the study you referenced it can't even be 125,000. Your statement is patently false and not supported by any study.

Quote:
There are 300 million guns in the US and about 60k total deaths from guns per year
This comparison of guns to doctors is nonsense.

First of all, if you want to compare doctors to guns then you are clearly stating "guns kill people" since you are clearly stating that doctors kill people. Are you conceding that the argument that people kill people not guns is a false argument but it is actually guns that do kill people?

What you are actually doing in comparing doctors to guns is comparing persons to an instance. Either you should be comparing the instances of guns to the instances of medical interactions or you should be comparing those that could possibly make a medical mistake to those that own a gun.

If you are not conceding that guns kill people but rather it is gun owners that do that then your numbers of persons that can make a medical error resulting in death is incredibly low. Unlike the study you referenced and are misusing horribly, you only count doctors. You should also be including physician assistants, nurses, nursing assistants, pharmacists, pharmacist techs, insurance coders, the people at the check in counter, the writers of medical software, and the list goes on and on. Any one of those persons could make a mistake that could cause a death according to the study. That would mean you have severely understated the number of persons that have made a mistake resulting in a death.
(There are 4.2 million nurses on top of the 1.1 million doctors which results in your number being understated by at least a factor of 5. If I researched the entire medical industry it would show you to be off by much more but the factor of 5 is enough to show you are way outside the mathematical norm.)

But you counted guns and not gun owners which mean you did the reverse for that argument. You have clearly overstated the number of gun owners by relying on the number of guns. The number of gun owners is only 30% of adults according to this study: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/
The number of adults is only just over 250,000,000 which means that only about 75,000,000 adults own guns.
(That would mean your comparison using guns instead of gun ownership overstated that part of you comparison by a factor of 4.)
Overstating one side of a comparison and understating the other is sloppy at best and down right deceitful at the other end.

Of course you could compare instances of guns with instances of patients interacting with the medical system.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/236589/number-of-doctor-visits-per-capita-by-country/
The US averages 4 doctor visits per capita. That means there are over 1 Billion (with a B) doctor visits. If we merely assume each visit only involves 1 check in and 1 nurse prior to the doctor that means there are over 3 billion personal interactions that could result in medical errors. ( I haven't even started with all the pills dispensed to those patients by pharmacists and other persons that can make mistakes but already you are off by a factor of over 3,000.))

Quote:
Looking at the numbers, it looks like Doctors are more deadly to people than guns are.
Now we have looked at the numbers.
But just for the sake of being ridiculous let's make a conclusion as baseless as yours. Your misuse of numbers is more deadly to people than doctors are.
(Although there is a possibility I could be correct, since you are using your numbers to support giving more opportunity for people to use guns to kill people.)
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 21 Nov, 2018 11:47 pm
@sceletera,
sceletera wrote:
Shouldn't both sides be entitled to state their opinions?
Sure. But being a doctor does not give their arguments any more validity than any other person.

And especially we should not accept falsehoods just because they come from doctors.
Olivier5
 
  2  
Reply Thu 22 Nov, 2018 12:57 am
@sceletera,
Good job.
0 Replies
 
 

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