58
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 08:23 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
This philosophical stuff is for oralloy, who because he believes 'guns=freedom' is an immutable truth, tries to slap other people over the head with it.
It is an immutable truth.

If a country abolishes freedom, I don't propose to force them to change. But I don't see the point of pretending that a country remains free when they are not.

If they abolish freedom, and they are happy with their choice, they should not try to hide the fact that they are no longer free.

vikorr wrote:
He can always stop doing that.
It is not in my nature to back down when I am certain that I am correct. Although I am always happy to listen to arguments that try to convince me that I am wrong.

vikorr wrote:
He can also choose to stop replying. It's up to him.
I enjoy pleasant civilized disagreements.
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 08:28 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
Although I am always happy to listen to arguments that try to convince me that I am wrong.

I don't think he's going to make an argument. I think he's here to make the point that no one's thinking can be trusted, and that therefore nothing can be said.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 08:43 pm
@Glennn,
I'm not certain why you are asking the question. Are you trying to say it's not subjective? Do you believe that prisoners in a large jail should have them?
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 08:45 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
It is not in my nature to back down when I am certain that I am correct. Although I am always happy to listen to arguments that try to convince me that I am wrong.
Good for you. The only thing I would add though, is that you should properly look into subjectivity of truths for yourself. You can't possibly know you are right if you haven't even bothered properly looking into it. It's like saying 'I know nothing about it, but I know I must be right'.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 08:51 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
I don't think he's going to make an argument. I think he's here to make the point that no one's thinking can be trusted, and that therefore nothing can be said.
Your responses so far have been displaying what I said about our brain filtering things, and how we interpret things based on our beliefs/values/experiences etc. You got what you got despite:
- me specifically saying why I've been conversing with oralloy. And;
- I think we should always act on our 'knowledge', and we should always be able to justify our position with logical argument. Subjectivity shouldn't be an excuse for inaction.
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 08:54 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
I think we should always act on our 'knowledge', and we should always be able to justify our position with logical argument.

Uh huh. And exactly what is your position on the subject? And what is your logical argument to support that position?
oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 09:04 pm
@vikorr,
I only stand my ground on facts when I understand an issue well and have a strong basis for believing myself to be correct.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 09:44 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
And exactly what is your position on the subject? And what is your logical argument to support that position?
Your question isn't specific enough. Which part of the subject. If I'm at all interested, then we'll see. And you should note that is consistent with me making comment on very specific things in this thread.
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 09:45 pm
@oralloy,
And yet you admit to not knowing anything about psychology, how memory works, etc...
vikorr
 
  5  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2018 12:30 am
So if your 2nd ammendment isn't a subjective truth, why not advocate for:
- prisoners to all have guns
- psychotic people to have guns
- severe paranoid schizophrenics to have guns
- domestically violent people to have guns
- standover merchants to have legally have guns
- all street gangs to legally and freely possess guns
- all drug dealers, and drug dealing organisations to legally and freely possess guns
- all people intending to shoot up a school to legally and freely have a gun

After all, that ammendment specifically states: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." There's nothing in that about being in prison etc. In fact saying only "shall not be infringed", without any qualifications, means regardless of the circumstances.

An example of a qualification would be "the right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." You could also add the qualifier 'sane'.
Setanta
 
  4  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2018 02:26 am
@vikorr,
In fact, the first clause of the second amendment states: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, . . . One might ask what constitutes a well regulated militia, but the constitution had already defined that when the amendment was proposed. Article One, Section Eight, has a paragraph which reads: [Congress shall have the power] . . . To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress; . This gives Congress the right to legislate gun control laws, including the restriction on who may participate in the militia. In The United States versus Miller, the Supremes upheld the National Fire Arms act of 1934, commenting in the majority opinion: The Court cannot take judicial notice that a shotgun having a barrel less than 18 inches long has today any reasonable relation to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, and therefore cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees to the citizen the right to keep and bear such a weapon.

Both gun control advocates and gun nuts claim that that decision supports their positions. However, the gun lobby is pointedly ignoring the Militia Act of 1903. That act, and its subsequent amendments established the National Guard, and defined all those who were not members of State or Federal National Guards as the unorganized militia. That leaves the Congress free to regulate that unorganized militia based on their power to organize the militia.

The most pernicious influence of the gun debate is the National Rifle Association, which pours millions into congressional campaigns, especially for the House. Most members of the House will not buck the power of the NRA, because those who are not gun nuts don't care, and those who are will join the NRA in actively campaigning against any candidate who does not pass their sniff test. Nevertheless, Congress could, if they had the collective balls, regulate membership in both the organized and unorganized militia to exclude the mentally, and the other categories you have mentioned.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2018 02:45 am
@Setanta,
Hi Setanta, I'm aware of the first part of the clause - I posted it in this thread before, talking about how it introduced subjectivity. However in my above post, I posted only the 2nd part, because that is the only part our other posters bother posting, presenting it as an absolute truth.

Thank you for the other information.
Glennn
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2018 07:10 am
@vikorr,
Quote:
Your responses so far have been displaying what I said about our brain filtering things, and how we interpret things based on our beliefs/values/experiences etc.

Uh huh. Sure. And your responses so far have demonstrated perfectly what I've said about you not being willing to state your position on the subject, and then offer a logical argument to support that position?
Quote:
Your question isn't specific enough. Which part of the subject.

The part of the subject that you take a position on. You can start by telling your position specifically.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  4  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2018 07:36 am
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:

It's like saying 'I know nothing about it, but I know I must be right'.


Spot on!





I wonder how Oralloy would view this Yanni or Laurel thing currently taking over the internet. I mean, I hear "Yanni" and can't even begin to imagine how someone could hear Laurel. MY truth is that the audio recording is saying Yanni. If I were asked, under oath, to recite exactly what I understand to be true, I would say "Yanni".

Someone else would have the same level of conviction that the phrase is Laurel.

How could both be true in Oralloy's world?
coldjoint
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2018 01:45 pm
Quote:
Why Don’t We Defund Planned Parenthood and Use the Money to Keep Our Schools Safe?

Sounds good to me. Leave the law abiding citizens alone and protect the children, including the unborn.
Quote:
Leading pro-life Advocate Dana Loesch has an interesting question. Knowing that hundreds of millions of dollars go to the nation’s biggest abortion company perhaps there would be a better use of the funds and perhaps that better use would be to direct them towards school safety. As she asks:

“How about we take the half a billion dollars from Planned Parenthood and redirect that into making sure that our schools are secure, and that we have armed security and metal detectors?

http://www.lifenews.com/2018/05/22/why-dont-we-defund-planned-parenthood-and-use-the-money-to-keep-our-schools-safe/
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  4  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2018 01:50 pm
Planned Parenthood is about so much more than abortion. It is a terrible idea to keep cutting its funding. Ample money could be had by simply taxing the rich and putting the military on a realistic budget.
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oralloy
 
  -4  
Reply Tue 22 May, 2018 01:57 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
So if your 2nd ammendment isn't a subjective truth, why not advocate for:
- prisoners to all have guns
- psychotic people to have guns
- severe paranoid schizophrenics to have guns
- domestically violent people to have guns
- standover merchants to have legally have guns
- all street gangs to legally and freely possess guns
- all drug dealers, and drug dealing organisations to legally and freely possess guns
- all people intending to shoot up a school to legally and freely have a gun

After all, that ammendment specifically states: "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." There's nothing in that about being in prison etc. In fact saying only "shall not be infringed", without any qualifications, means regardless of the circumstances.

An example of a qualification would be "the right of law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." You could also add the qualifier 'sane'.
Laws are allowed to restrict a right if there is a very good reason for that restriction and if the constraint is not so severe that it prevents the exercise of the right.
 

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