57
   

Guns: how much longer will it take ....

 
 
Baldimo
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 03:52 pm
@maporsche,
Quote:
I think the point being made is that it's impossible (near-impossible?) to take aimed shots with a rifle using the fully automatic mode...therefore making an AR15 more deadly than an M16 firing in full auto mode.

It isn't the weapon, it's the person in either case, does it matter if they follow the shooting fundamentals or pull the trigger as fast as they can? There is no straw man as the AR-15 works exactly like any other semi-auto rifle and handgun? So we either ban all semi-auto rifles and handguns or we are just banning a gun because it looks scary and has "certain features"? I can put my Ruger Ranch Rifle into a composite stock, unlike the wooden stock I currently have it in, and have those very same "features". It does nothing but make it look different, it's cosmetic.
vikorr
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 03:58 pm
@oralloy,
And once again your filtering proves my point.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 03:59 pm
@Baldimo,
Are you trying to make the argument that all semi-automatic weapons are identical in terms of potential lethality? That all semi-automatic weapons are identical except for cosmetic features?

Are you trying to make the argument that round size, muzzle velocity, recoil, magazine size, etc are all just cosmetic and offer no 'lethal-advantage' from one semi-automatic firearm to the next?


Certainly as "it's the person" is true, so is it "the weapon" to some degree, right?
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 04:23 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
I think the point being made is that it's impossible (near-impossible?) to take aimed shots with a rifle using the fully automatic mode...therefore making an AR15 more deadly than an M16 firing in full auto mode.
If you are saying that machine guns are less lethal than ordinary rifles, that's an argument for repealing laws against machine guns.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 04:24 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
Are you trying to make the argument that round size, muzzle velocity, recoil, magazine size, etc are all just cosmetic and offer no 'lethal-advantage' from one semi-automatic firearm to the next?
Clearly certain types of rounds are appropriate for a certain types of animals. But the discussion was about full-auto verses semi-auto. One semi-auto is indeed pretty much the same as any another.

Magazine size depends entirely on the magazine and not on the gun. Put a five round magazine in an AR-15, and it's a five round gun.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 04:26 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
And once again your filtering proves my point.
I believe in facts and reality. I reject the notion that reality is whatever people want it to be.
Baldimo
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 05:14 pm
@maporsche,
Quote:
Are you trying to make the argument that all semi-automatic weapons are identical in terms of potential lethality?

If used in the wrong manner, yes. I've asked this question about a dozen times now, what's the difference between a Ruger Ranch Rifle and an AR-15? Why is one on the ban list and the other is not?

Quote:
That all semi-automatic weapons are identical except for cosmetic features?

Pretty much. When the "fire rate" is a difference of maybe 200 rpm, they are all pretty much the same. Once again, those fire rates are based on "unlimited ammo" aka fed via a belt with no concern for heat warping the barrel. Since you can't really fire a semi-auto like this, the ammo shot per minute whether 200 rpm or 750 prm makes no difference. It's how fast can you pull the trigger and that will depend on if you want to hit what you are shooting at.
Even been to the range and have an idiot next to you do constant mag dumps? Look at his target, how many holes does he really have on that paper in the human shape area?

Quote:
Are you trying to make the argument that round size, muzzle velocity, recoil, magazine size, etc are all just cosmetic and offer no 'lethal-advantage' from one semi-automatic firearm to the next?

Muzzel velocity and ammo size: If we discuss semi-auto rifles vs handguns, of course they have a higher muzzle velocity, but the 5.56/.223 round is smaller than a 9mm, it's about the size of a .22 LR, just heavier gram weight then the .22. My Ruger shoots .223.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/10/daniel-zimmerman/medics-advice-shoot-heaviest-rifle-round-shoot-can-hit-shoot/

Recoil:
If you are doing a mag dump, what does recoil have to do with it? The AR-15 has about the same recoil as a .22LR. We had Drill Sgt's who would shoot the M-16 off of their chin and other vital area's to show how little the recoil of the weapon was. Does the lack of recoil make the weapon more lethal to you? Read the article I posted above and get back to me.

Magazine size does nothing to make a weapon more lethal. The Parkland shooter proved that when he was only using 10 round magazines and the Santa Fe shooter proved the same thing with a pump action shotgun and a .38 5 or 6 shot revolver.

Banning the AR-15 is for the cosmetic reasons, as it works no different than any other semi-auto rifle or pistol as they all operate the same, pull the trigger and it shoots, pull the trigger really fast lots of times and they will empty the magazine pretty quickly. The Virginia Tech and Gabby G.
and now Santa Fe shooters proven that you can be deadly with a handgun, it doesn't take a semi-auto anything to be a violent killer.

Quote:
Certainly as "it's the person" is true, so is it "the weapon" to some degree, right?

A shotgun and 5 or 6 shot revolver say the weapon doesn't matter. Considering a majority of murders by gun are done with a handgun, I don't think the weapon makes a difference.

Have you considered the number of people who use a gun for self-defense? The 2013 CDC study gives different numbers, but the one with the best research says from 500,000 to 2.5 million uses of guns for self-defense. That by far has to be a factor before we move to start banning guns, shouldn't it?
0 Replies
 
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 06:19 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:
I reject the notion that reality is whatever people want it to be.
Well, I never said that. I said it's subjective, which is rather different from 'whatever they want it to be'.

The irony is that you are making your reality what you want it to be - a place with no subjectiveness. A place where truth is absolute - a place where what you want, exists. But this only exists in your world because you convince yourself of it.

- A piece of writing exists as fact
- the ideas contained the writer put into that piece of writing, are subjective (excusing mathematics and much science)
- what people get out of a piece of writing (particularly the longer it goes) varies from person to person, which means their interpretation is subjective

You confuse 'fact' of the existence of a writing, with the subjectiveness of the idea that lead to the writing...well, maybe you don't...maybe you think the idea is absolute. Which brings me back to the irony of you rejecting 'making reality what you want it to be, while yourself making reality what you want it to be.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 06:22 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Well, I never said that. I said it's subjective, which is rather different from 'whatever they want it to be'.

I don't see any difference.


vikorr wrote:
The irony is that you are making your reality what you want it to be - a place with no subjectiveness. A place where truth is absolute - a place where what you want, exists. But this only exists in your world because you convince yourself of it.

No. Reality is not what I want it to be. Reality is reality.
vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 06:34 pm
I found an interesting article. I've cut it right down, so that it's not too long. It's an opinion piece in the LA Times, and quotes a lot of stats.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/opinion-la/la-ol-guns-self-defense-charleston-20150619-story.html
Quote:
Cotton's assertion reflects a common and romanticized argument by the gun lobby. If we were all armed, we would all be safe, an argument as devoid of humanity as it is of logic.

the Violence Policy Center released a fresh analysis of federal crime and health data that explores how often potential victims actually turned the tables. Parsing 2012 numbers, the center counted 259 justifiable gun-related homicides, or incidents in which authorities ruled that killings occurred in self-defense.

That's in a nation in which there are some 300 million firearms, nearly one for every person. This is also a nation in which, in 2012, there were 1.2 million violent crimes, defined as murder, forcible rape, robbery and aggravated assault. Or, put another way, 1.2 million scenarios in which there was potential for someone to kill in self-defense.

Match those 259 justifiable homicides with the theft of about 232,000 guns each year, about 172,000 of them during burglaries. That's a ratio of one justifiable homicide for every 896 guns put in the hands of criminals.

Those 259 justifiable homicides also pale compared with, in the same year, 8,342 criminal homicides using guns, 20,666 suicides with guns, and 548 fatal unintentional shootings, according to the FBI's Supplemental Homicide Report.

the Violence Policy Center also dives into the thorny thicket of how often the presence of a gun stops a crime — either violent or against property, such as a burglary — from happening. The gun lobby trots out an annual figure of 2.5 million such instances. But an analysis of five years' worth of stats collected by the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey puts the number much, much lower — about 67,740 times a year.

And those suicides? About half of all suicides are committed with guns, and seven in 10 by men, who also account for 74% of gun owners in the country.
Oddly, given these combined statistics, nearly half of gun owners say they keep weapons because it makes them feel safer, a proportion that has increased dramatically since 1999 even though violent crime has been in a steady decline.

So what conclusions can we draw from this? The notion that a good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun is a romanticized vision of the nature of violent crime. And that the sea of guns in which we live causes exponentially more danger and harm than good. It's long past time to start emphasizing the "well-regulated" phrase in the 2nd Amendment.

vikorr
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 06:35 pm
@oralloy,
Of course you wouldn't see any difference. Doing so would undermine you making your reality what you want it to be.
Agent1741
 
  2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 06:46 pm
@msolga,
Its not the guns its the people that use them!! I have a carry permit & a semi auto pistol & have had them for years BUT I have never shot anyone!! If you took away the right to carry the only people it would affect are those who have them legally. There was a case recently where a 17 yr old shot other kids at school. It was his fathers gun & should have been securely locked up & in this case the father is laible, its not the guns fault
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 07:10 pm
@vikorr,
So are you saying I don't have the right to have a gun for home defense?
oralloy
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 07:14 pm
@vikorr,
vikorr wrote:
Of course you wouldn't see any difference.
There is no difference for me to see.

vikorr wrote:
Doing so would undermine you making your reality what you want it to be.
People don't make reality what they want it to be. Reality is just reality. Whether anyone likes that or not doesn't matter. Reality stays the same regardless.
Agent1741
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 07:18 pm
@Glennn,
I am not saying that at all. So many just want to blame the gun whereas its the owner/user who has control over what the gun does. U can stab someone in the neck with a pencil or pen to kill is that the fault of the pen/pencil? NO its the fault of whose hand its in, that's where the problem lies!
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 07:18 pm
@vikorr,
Quote:
the Violence Policy Center also dives into the thorny thicket of how often the presence of a gun stops a crime — either violent or against property, such as a burglary — from happening. The gun lobby trots out an annual figure of 2.5 million such instances. But an analysis of five years' worth of stats collected by the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey puts the number much, much lower — about 67,740 times a year.
The Violence Policy Center is dishonest.

The number that they cite is known to be a dramatic undercount. It comes from a survey that did not even ask respondents about their defensive uses of guns. The number is at least 500,000 a year.

That said, even 67,740 a year would dwarf the number of people killed in homicides.

Quote:
It's long past time to start emphasizing the "well-regulated" phrase in the 2nd Amendment.
I support bringing back the militia.

Militiamen have the right to own machine guns, grenades and grenade launchers, anti-tank bazookas, and Stinger anti-aircraft missiles. And they have the right to keep all of these weapons at home.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  3  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 07:19 pm
@Glennn,
I don't think anyone is saying that you can't have a gun. I still have a shotgun, I no longer have the handgun or the 'problematic weapon' but that was for personal reasons. Turned those guns over to a police captain over 25 years ago.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 07:20 pm
@Agent1741,
Agent1741 wrote:
I am not saying that at all.
Look again. Glennn's question was directed at Vikorr.

You, me, and Glennn are all on the same side here.
0 Replies
 
Glennn
 
  0  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 07:23 pm
@Agent1741,
My post was directed at vikkor.
0 Replies
 
Agent1741
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 May, 2018 07:23 pm
@glitterbag,
I think that some groups here in USA want to see more done to stop heinous crimes being committed, which I fully agree with. Realistically though I have absolutely no idea as to how this could be done in any way shape or form!! They certain parties keep pushing for greater control here which does make me wonder where its going to end!
 

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