Obama..... not religious?

@dlowan,

sorta

It depends on if one reads scripture from an Orthodox (Fundamentalist), Conservative, or Reformed perspective. Whether it's a perspective from Judaism or Christianity, since both religions have denominations from each of the three perspectives, the WORD, Word, word is in the eye of the reader.

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@DrewDad,

I'm saying that, no we can't judge someone for sure on their actions, because politics is extremely complex, and whilst actions give us an insight they do not give us a law.
Since we can't see inside his brain, we can only go by his actions, but these aren't a metre of truth either.

Ok, using Hitler as an example is a cliche. I just used it to make the point that actions and thoughts of the politician are more complex than anything that can be summed up in one ideology.

As I said, we do not know, and may never know, but keep on finding loopholes in my logic. They're good for me.

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@The Pentacle Queen,

We can't ever know. Maybe the Shadow knows, but we can't.

We can only make judgments. Judgments based on people's words and actions. Unless you know of something that contradicts his stated beliefs, how can you presume to judge what's in his head?

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@DrewDad,

I'm just going on the fact that his values (expressed in words) NEED NOT be Christian, but he is required to be christian, which is expressed in his actions.

I can posit theories, but I can't make them credible until I do know of something that contradicts his beliefs. Which is why I am musing it on a message board rather than reading it in the papers.

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

There you go mixing your terms again. Fundamentalists may believe that God is the Bible and the Bible is God, but they do not define Christianity.

No I did not. I spoke of the god of the Bible. There is such a thing as "the Bible"...and that Bible has a "god." The "god" by the way...was the god Jesus prayed to...and when Jesus gave sermons about his father in Heaven...he was talking about the god of the Bible.

1 Reply

@JPB,

Quote:

sorta

It depends on if one reads scripture from an Orthodox (Fundamentalist), Conservative, or Reformed perspective. Whether it's a perspective from Judaism or Christianity, since both religions have denominations from each of the three perspectives, the WORD, Word, word is in the eye of the reader.

That is patent nonsense, JPB.

Here is a bibliography of the Bibles I have on my bookshelf here.

St. Joseph Edition of The New American Bible; Catholic book Publishing, NY; 1968 (Catholic)
The New American Bible; Thomas Nelson Inc, Nashville; 1971 (Catholic)
The Holy Bible King James Version; Thomas Nelson, Nashville: 1984 (Protestant)
The Holy Bible New International Version; Zondervan Bible Pub. Grand Rapids; 1978 (Non-demoninational)
The Scofield Reference Holy Bible (King James Version); Oxford Univ. Press; NY; 1909 (Protestant)
The Holy Scriptures Masoretic Text; Jewish Publ Society; Philadelphia: 1955 (Jewish)
The Holy Bible, St.Joseph Textbook Edition, Confraternity Version; Catholic book Publ: NY; 1963; (Catholic)
The Holy Bible Revised Berkeley Version; The Gideons Intrl; 1984; (Non-denominational Protestant)
The New American Catholic Edition of The Holy Bible; Benziger Bros, Boston; 1950 (Catholic)
The Old Testament; Guild Press NY; 1965 (Catholic)
The Living Bible; Holman Illustrated Edition: A.J. Holman Co; Philadelphia; 1973 (Protestant)
The Holy Bible; King James Version; The World Publ Co: Cleveland; (no date); (Protestant)
The Old Testament; Hebrew Publishing Co: NY; 1916 (English & Hebrew) (Jewish)

The wording may be ever so slightly different...but the essentials of the passage at Leviticus 20-13 (which describes how the god of the Bible feels about homosexual conduct) in every one of those Bibles, Jewish, Catholic, and Protestant...are: “If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.”

There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that “the god of the Bible”...which is the god Jesus worshiped and prayed to...considers homosexual conduct to be an abomination.

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@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

No I did not. I spoke of the god of the Bible. There is such a thing as "the Bible"...and that Bible has a "god." The "god" by the way...was the god Jesus prayed to...and when Jesus gave sermons about his father in Heaven...he was talking about the god of the Bible.

Do you honestly believe this crap? Or do you just think that no one here has taken a history of religion course, or studied the Bible academically?

Lots of folks understand that the Bible is a mash-up of stuff from many different sources. And lots of folks understand that the Bible was created by people, and is not the spoken word of God, and that people are fallible.

I'm not some kid to be browbeaten, so take your bluster somewhere else.

1 Reply

@JPB,

JPB wrote:

It depends on if one reads scripture from an Orthodox (Fundamentalist), Conservative, or Reformed perspective. Whether it's a perspective from Judaism or Christianity, since both religions have denominations from each of the three perspectives, the WORD, Word, word is in the eye of the reader.

On the other hand, text is text, and reading comprehension is reading comprehension. There is a place for interpretation, and I wouldn't argue with you if you were talking about the psalms, or the book of love, or some other poetic passage of the Bible. But not when you're talking about the five books of Moses. They unambiguously describe god's positions on gay sex (con), on slavery (pro), and on following his orders to the point of murdering your own child (pro). And that's not an interpretation, it's a fact. To deny it is either a sign of poor reading comprehension or of willful misrepresentation.

Since Frank has the pertinent quotes bookmarked and I don't, I'll leave them for him to post.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

but the essentials of the passage at Leviticus 20-13 (which describes how the god of the Bible feels about homosexual conduct)

You do understand the difference between Old Testament an New Testament, right? And what that means?

Are you also aware of the passages that describe how God loves the smell of burnt offerings, and the others that describe how God hates the smell of burnt offerings?

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@Thomas,

Oh -- I see he already did. Our posts crossed.

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

Do you honestly believe this crap? Or do you just think that no one here has taken a history of religion course, or studied the Bible academically?

**** no. My guess is the supposed theology of the Bible is bullshit.

Quote:

Lots of folks understand that the Bible is a mash-up of stuff from many different sources. And lots of folks understand that the Bible was created by people, and is not the spoken word of God, and that people are fallible.

Yeah...just like lots of folks "understand" it is the literal word of some god.

You don't "understand" about the Bible any more than they do. You are guessing...and apparently do not have the balls or sense of integrity to identify your guesses as guesses.

Quote:

I'm not some kid to be browbeaten, so take your bluster somewhere else.

You are a push over! I'd debate you on this subject while doing a killer Sudoku.

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Quote:

You do understand the difference between Old Testament an New Testament, right? And what that means?

Are you also aware of the passages that describe how God loves the smell of burnt offerings, and the others that describe how God hates the smell of burnt offerings?

Yes...but what does that have to do with what we are discussing?

The Old Testament tells us what the god of the Bible feels about certain things...as Thomas just noted. The New Testament does not tell us that the god changed its mind on any of that stuff.

Or do you have a quote that does that????

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank, your rhetoric has not improved with age.

In one post you state that Christians must hate gays because the Bible tells 'em to, and in the next you talk about how any understanding of the Bible is just a guess.

That's the problem with you agnostics. You can't just take a stance and stick with it. Wink

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@Thomas,

Quote:

Oh -- I see he already did. Our posts crossed.

Well, I didn't get the other two items you mentioned, Thomas, so let me do that now:

Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...such slaves
you may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their
hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves."Leviticus 25:44ff"

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

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@DrewDad,

Quote:

Frank, your rhetoric has not improved with age.

Oh, it has! You just don't want to acknowledge it because you are losing your cool.

Quote:

In one post you state that Christians must hate gays because the Bible tells 'em to...

I never said that at any time!

Quote:

... and in the next you talk about how any understanding of the Bible is just a guess.

I didn't even say that!

You would do a much better job if you would simply cut and paste what I actually say...than pretend I am saying something that you can mock. I don't blame you for mocking the stuff you make up. I would mock it also.

Quote:

That's the problem with you agnostics. You can't just take a stance and stick with it.

I'm consistent despite your laughable attempts to make it seem I am not.

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

The Old Testament tells us what the god of the Bible feels about certain things...

No, it tells what the people who wrote those passages in the Old Testament felt about certain things.

Frank Apisa wrote:

The New Testament does not tell us that the god changed its mind on any of that stuff.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_homosexuality

Quote:

The Bible, both in the Old and New Testament, includes several passages that have frequently been interpreted to deem homosexuality sinful; however, those who disagree often offer alternative interpretations. The most commonly cited verses are Genesis 19:4-29, Leviticus 20:13 and Leviticus 18:22 in the Old Testament, and Romans 1:26-27, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:10 in the New Testament. Christians generally accept these verses as Scripture but differ about how to interpret them and how they apply to contemporary situations.

(emphasis mine)

Goodness! Christians having a disagreement; however could that have happened? Except Frank apparently gets to decide who the real Christians are....

1 Reply

@DrewDad,

Christians don't have to hate gays, and indeed there are many who don't. It's God who hates gays. That's one reason Richard Dawkins was right when he described god as "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction".

1 Reply

@Frank Apisa,

Frank Apisa wrote:

I never said that at any time!

Well, you rarely say anything, really.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I'm consistent despite your laughable attempts to make it seem I am not.

Consistent at jabbing at those with beliefs, confident in the knowledge that you have none of your own.

Let me be clear: Stop making claims about how others should interpret the Bible, because despite your belief, you are not God.

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@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

Christians don't have to hate gays, and indeed many do. It's God who hates them. That's one reason Richard Dawkins was right when he described god as "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction".

Well, that's the trouble of discussing "God". First we have to define our terms.

If when you say "God" you mean "God as portrayed in the Old Testament is a mean bastard who kills children for making fun of bald guys", then I'll agree.

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@DrewDad,

DrewDad wrote:

Let me be clear: Stop making claims about how others should interpret the Bible, because despite your belief, you are not God.

Why should he stop? Everyone can make claims about the interpretation any other book, and they don't have to be god to make them. Why should the interpretation of the Bible be any different? It's just another book for Wotan's sake!

1 Reply

Obama..... not religious?

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