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Obama..... not religious?

 
 
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 03:35 pm
@JPB,
Quote:
Quote:

It's just that historically favored progressive, or liberal, views on gay rights, women's rights, and other issuesdo not NEED to be specifically christian- the same set of values can be easily secular, yet one would NEED to be christian to gain presidency, so therefore it is plausible that he may not be christian.



And this is precisely what triggers my climb up onto the soapbox. If one states that they are a member of a certain faith, is an active member of that faith, and walks the walk of his chosen faith then that person is, in fact, a member of that faith.

I've had the same discussion with fundies who says that Catholics aren't christian so this has nothing to do with Obama, per se.


Bullshit, we can't see inside his brain. That makes belief systems sound like puppetry. Things aren't as simple as that, faith has a multitude of issues connected to authenticity. It's very plausible he could be using the UCC to further his career, and so what? We'll never know. Or at least not yet.

old europe
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 03:41 pm
@The Pentacle Queen,
The Pentacle Queen wrote:
Bullshit, we can't see inside his brain. That makes belief systems sound like puppetry.


Sure, we can't see inside his brain. You also don't know whether or not he really believes in the platform of the Democratic party. Maybe he just paid lip service to those values and acted according to the political platform of the Democratic party so he could get elected President.

Because, you know, a radical Islamist just couldn't get elected...
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 04:17 pm
@The Pentacle Queen,
The Pentacle Queen wrote:
... faith has a multitude of issues connected to authenticity.


bullshit.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
What in there has he not followed or espoused?



Actually, JPB...

...an argument can be made that any “Christian” who condones homosexual behavior, is a hypocrite...which is equivalent to saying that the person is not really a Christian.

The Bible is unambiguous about how the god of the Bible...the god Jesus worshipped...feels about homosexual conduct. It is, in the opinion of that god...an abomination...an insult to the god.

And the opinion of the god of the Bible should matter to Christians...should it not?

So from that perspective, he is not a Christian...and quite honestly, it sounds as though you are not either.

Can we discuss this?


I didn't claim to be a christian. I said I was raised Congregationalist, I didn't say that I'm a practicing christian. I take a prophetical view of Jesus -- love the message on how we should treat each other, not real fond of Paul, the gospel writers, or the Church. I try to live by a version of the golden rule that transcends all religions, but I don't profess to embrace any organized belief system.

From religioustolerance.org on the UCC and homosexuality.

Quote:
The journey towards equality for sexual minorities:

In 2005, the UCC became the first major Christian denomination in the U.S. to promote same-sex marriage. They confirmed this position in 2007. However, their journey to this point started in the 1970s.

John H. Thomas, General Minister and President of the UCC wrote:

"It was not an 'issue' or the alleged 'gay agenda' that caught the attention of the church. It was the presence of gay and lesbian persons in our churches, as well as their families, who began to be unwilling to be silent about their sexual orientation, and who began to say to us that it is wrong to ask our gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender members to choose between their baptismal identity and their sexual identity. 4

During the 1970s, the General Synod commissioned a study of human sexuality. Their final report "Human Sexuality" was controversial; its support fell far short of a consensus. At about that time, many congregations engaged in the "Open and Affirming" process that usually lead to a declaration that they are open and affirming to gay, lesbian, bisexual and transsexual persons. Several hundred congregations have now taken this step.

In the early 1990s, the General Synod recommended that that candidates for ordination should not be automatically rejected on the basis of their minority sexual orientation. Committees on Ministry of the various Associations in the UCC largely followed this recommendation.

More recently, same-sex couples have approached their ministers and asked that their relationships be blessed in a formal church ritual.

John H. Thomas continues:

"Over the years the church has heard the scripture speaking in new ways. There was a time when Christians believed the Bible condoned slavery. There was a time when Christians believed the Bible prohibited women from offering certain kinds of leadership in the church. In each case a few passages were identified to 'prove' the point. But as Christians began to listen more carefully to the whole of Scripture, new insights emerged. ..."

"Not every new theological and biblical insight is true or valid. But we must recognize that interpretations change in light of new understandings, that to embrace new insights is not necessarily to abandon scripture but rather to read scripture in the light of life’s new challenges and opportunities under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And it is to read every text in Scripture against the highest law which is the love of God and the love of neighbor." 4


I have yet to see or hear anything that Obama has said or done that would put him outside his faith.
Sglass
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 04:39 pm
I'd like to suggest O'Bama is not so much a religious person, but perhaps more of a spiritual person. I see definite leanings to Buddhism in his overall view of the world. He is attempting major kosen rufu (world peace).

Frank Apisa
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 04:41 pm
@JPB,

Quote:
"Over the years the church has heard the scripture speaking in new ways. There was a time when Christians believed the Bible condoned slavery.


The Bible most definitely DOES condone slavery.


Quote:
There was a time when Christians believed the Bible prohibited women from offering certain kinds of leadership in the church. In each case a few passages were identified to 'prove' the point. But as Christians began to listen more carefully to the whole of Scripture, new insights emerged. ..."


Actually, new rationalizations were invented to try to make sense of nonsense.

Quote:


"Not every new theological and biblical insight is true or valid. But we must recognize that interpretations change in light of new understandings, that to embrace new insights is not necessarily to abandon scripture but rather to read scripture in the light of life’s new challenges and opportunities under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And it is to read every text in Scripture against the highest law which is the love of God and the love of neighbor."



Sounds good...but it ends up being bullshit.

If a conflict exists between “living the god” and “loving the neighbor”...how do you resolve it?

“Loving the god” certainly has to contain an appreciation for what the god considers offensive. The god specifically says that homosexual conduct offends it. You cannot get away from that!

The nonsense that scripture is being interpreted in light of life's new challenges is a laugh.

What is happening is that people are looking at the nonsense in the Bible and realizing that there is no way a GOD said any of that stuff...and that the best guess is that most of the “thou shalt not...” is just the sensibilities of an ancient, superstitious, unsophisticated tribe put into the mouth of a god they invented for that purpose.

Of course, most are too frightened of the boogeyman god to actually say that...so they go through the “interpret it in light of life's new challenges” malarkey.

I stand by my contention that any Christian who condones homosexual behavior is a hypocrite"which is equivalent to not being a Christian.

People who finally come to their senses about the nonsense in the Bible ought not to go half way. Get the hell out!

Become an agnostic.
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 04:47 pm
@Sglass,
Buddhism isn't a religion?

I'm still trying to figure out how one acts religious...
sozobe
 
  7  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 04:52 pm
@JPB,
Doesn't it involve telling other people that their beliefs are wrong and that the tellee should think the same way the teller does?

Oh wait, Frank doesn't like being called religious... Wink
0 Replies
 
Sglass
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 04:56 pm
@JPB,
No, Buddhism is a spiritual path leading to correct behavior.

Traditional religion cannot live up to it's own propaganda

how does one act religious? i've been wondering that since I heard my first lie from the pulpit as a child.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 09:12 pm
@JPB,
It tends to kind of absorb the local god flora and fauna...so there are all kinds of gods and such that have become associated with Buddhism in different countries...but there is no god in Buddhism.

There are "supernatural" beliefs, though, but lots of western Buddhists don't really take them on..eg reincarnation and such.

Buddhism doesn't behave like a lot of religions in that it doesn't mind other beliefs and taking on local camouflage.
JPB
 
  2  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 09:54 pm
@dlowan,
yeah, sorry -- I wasn't trying to take this thread down a comparative religions path but Buddhism is usually in those curricula.

Getting back to Obama's religiosity... he acts like most Congregationalists/UCCs I know.
0 Replies
 
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 27 Jan, 2009 09:59 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I stand by my contention that any Christian who condones homosexual behavior is a hypocrite"which is equivalent to not being a Christian.


I always love it when someone not in the club decides they know more than the members about the duties and obligations of belonging.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 05:25 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:
I always love it when someone not in the club decides they know more than the members about the duties and obligations of belonging.

I don't see a problem with that. Indeed, my experience is that most Christians know little more about Christianity than birds know about ornithology.

But your point that Obama sounds like most members of his church is well-taken.
dlowan
 
  0  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 05:31 am
@Thomas,
Quote:
Indeed, my experience is that most Christians know little more about Christianity than birds know about ornithology.



You're not the Messiah, you know.

You're just a very naughty boy.




































Cool
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 08:07 am
@JPB,
Quote:
I always love it when someone not in the club decides they know more than the members about the duties and obligations of belonging.


Sometimes it takes "someone outside the club" to call hypocrisy to the members attention. And obviously, this is one of those instances.

I ask directly: What does the god of the bible think about homosexual conduct?

Easy question to answer...because the god of the Bible is quoted directly on that issue.

So what is the answer?
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 08:16 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
The Pentacle Queen wrote:
Bullshit, we can't see inside his brain.

And yet, you refuse to judge him by his actions.
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 08:18 am
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
the god of the bible

There you go mixing your terms again. Fundamentalists may believe that God is the Bible and the Bible is God, but they do not define Christianity.
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 08:22 am
@old europe,
Quote:
Sure, we can't see inside his brain. You also don't know whether or not he really believes in the platform of the Democratic party. Maybe he just paid lip service to those values and acted according to the political platform of the Democratic party so he could get elected President.

Because, you know, a radical Islamist just couldn't get elected...


That is a very nice quip back, but it does not change the point that it is possible Obama has used a christian background to get elected.
I did not say DEFINITE, I just said possible, based on the fact his christian values are interchangeable with secular values, you would need to be a christian to get elected, and in his speeches he mentions finding a common denominator which all american values can be based on rather than taking stance that is slightly more influenced by christianity.
But what the heck, politics is a theatre of illusions anyway, I don't think anyone can bash anyone else's opinions on this matter because even if we knew all the observable facts it would still be guesswork.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 08:25 am
@Frank Apisa,
maybe it had therapy and recovered from its homophobia?
The Pentacle Queen
 
  1  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 08:25 am
@DrewDad,
Quote:
Quote:
Bullshit, we can't see inside his brain.


And yet, you refuse to judge him by his actions.


Hitler was a vegetarian.

We can't judge him on anything. We'll just have to wait and see what happens. And then wait another 30 or so years for scholars to tell us what 'actually' happened.
DrewDad
 
  3  
Reply Wed 28 Jan, 2009 08:37 am
@The Pentacle Queen,
The Pentacle Queen wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
Bullshit, we can't see inside his brain.


And yet, you refuse to judge him by his actions.


Hitler was a vegetarian.

Godwined!

Did that response make some kind of sense to you? Is vegetarianism some kind of moral touchstone?

Going to church, listening to sermons, giving talks to churches doesn't make one religious, because Hitler was a vegetarian which makes you doubt the moral fiber of all human beings. Riiiiight.
 

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