@JPB,
Thanks for the response, JPB.
Quote:One doesn't in an empirical sense. That's where faith and perhaps alternative evidences of knowing come in. I'm suggesting that there IS a universal Truth.
Well on the question of whether or not there is a GOD involved in the nature of the Reality of existence...more than likely (almost certainly) there is a TRUTH: Either there is a GOD (or gods) involved...or there are NO gods involved.
I have no problem with that.
But I personally see absolutely nothing that points to “There HAS TO BE a GOD involved”...and I see absolutely nothing that points to “There cannot be a GOD involved.”
Nothing!
Now I am not saying that because I do not know if there is a GOD or if there are NO gods...that nobody else can either.
If there is someone here who does KNOW either way....that person should speak up. If not, I think it is safe...and appropriate...to assume no one here KNOWS.
If there is someone here who does see anything that points to “There HAS TO BE a GOD involved”...or “There cannot be a GOD involved”...that person should speak up. If not, I think it is safe...and appropriate...to assume no one here can do so.
(I can think of one individual who may chime in on this...but if he does, I intend to dismiss his claims as pure fraud! Don't want to get into that without him entering the fray.)
So...lets take it from there.
The guesses of all the others you mentioned, whether they be mystics or non-mystics...are not really germane to the issue of the above comments.
Quote:I think the great mystics from across time have attempted to describe such a knowing but we have no language to adequately express it.
I have no problem doing that at all. That kind of “knowing” is merely guessing...and refusal to acknowledge the guessing as guessing.
Quote: To some (myself included, currently), this points toward evidence that there is no god, while to others it points to evidence that there is but we haven't adequately described it.
Truly, JPB...I am not being nasty here...but I think I have described it very clearly and adequately up above. People on both sides of this issue...theistic and atheistic...always seem to want to describe guesses about the issue as knowledge of some kind that is difficult to describe or express! I ask you with all the sincerity in the world...to really consider it carefully...and see if you don't realize that all it is...is guesswork.
Quote:I think we are limited as a people to completely grasp the concepts of the mystics, and the mystics are limited by a lack of language to get it through our thick skulls.
The unnamed individual I mentioned above once said (I weakly paraphrase), “What is there about the atmosphere in the subcontinent that makes those mystics think their guesses are any better than the guesses of the rest of the world.” With that...I agree.
Quote:My personal feeling is that the message of the mystics transcend religion and it's restrictions on knowing.
I appreciate hearing your guesses about what is happening with mystical considerations...but they are just guesses. My guesses are the opposite of yours. Neither of us knows. All we can do is guess.
Quote:Great mystics tend to come from deeply religious traditions, but their expressions, as well as the lives they lead, transcend any one spiritual path. It's almost as if you could profile the mystics across religions as easily as you can profile the fundamentalists. BUT, does that mean the mystics get it and the message they're trying to impart represents TRUTH? I have no idea.
Neither do I...and that is the point.
Quote:So --- what does that say about the truth of the Bible.
Not a bloody thing!
Quote: It's scripture. It's divinely inspired, meaning someone with a greater understanding than you or I tried to answer The Big Question which is, "What is the meaning of life?"
You lost me here. Is this what you are saying it is...or is this just a rhetorical device?
If you are saying that the Bible is “divinely inspired”...I want to know how you know this...or if you are merely guessing.
Quote:To me, those parts of the bible that tell the story of the mystics (Abraham, Job, Jesus) represent an attempt to describe Truth but it falters in the telling.
Okay..but I “think” it has no more relationship to the TRUTH...than does Gulliver's Travels. We are both guessing! Neither of us can produce anything to back up our guesses about the Bible.
Quote:Liberal Christians accept the truth of the bible, but that doesn't mean they think it's True.
I honestly do not care what they guess about the Bible. But this sentence sure leave a bad taste in my mouth.
Quote:There is no one belief statement that describes what it means to be a liberal Christian. Some believe in heaven and hell, some don't. Some believe in the Holy Trinity, some don't. Some believe in the virgin birth and physical resurrection of Christ, some don't.
When you say “they believe”...all you are saying is that they are guessing that particular thing to be the truth. They ought really to call it a guess. Disguising the guess with the word “believe” or “belief” sucks.
Is there a Hell? No way that I can see of knowing yes or no...no evidence that I can see worth using to make a meaningful guess. All you can do is to make a blind guess. So if you are saying “I believe in Hell”...you are actually saying, “My guess is there is a Hell.” Seems to me saying “My guess is...” is more ethical. Same with “I believe in Heaven...” “I believe in the Holy Trinity” “I believe in the Virgin Birth.” and so on.
Peace to you, JPB. Thanks for discussing this with me. Thanks for at least considering my position...and offering rebuttal.
