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FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:25 pm
@okie,
Here again, your ignorance about how congress works.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:33 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Enlighten us c.i. Tell us why okie is ignorant. You can't expect us to believe it on your asserted word. You must know how Congress works in order to say okie doesn't.

How does Congress work. Able me to know.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:07 pm
This is likely the death knell for the McCain camp - especially as, of this morning, he was bragging about putting a coalition together to get the bill passed.

Quote:

McCain takes credit for bill before it loses

By: Mike Allen
September 29, 2008 03:43 PM EST

Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and his top aides took credit for building a winning bailout coalition " hours before the vote failed and stocks tanked.


The rush to claim he had engineered a victory now looks like a strategic blunder that will prolong the McCain’s campaign’s difficulty in finding a winning message on the economy.

Shortly before the vote, McCain had bragged about his involvement and mocked Sen. Barack Obama for staying on the sidelines.

“I've never been afraid of stepping in to solve problems for the American people, and I'm not going to stop now,” McCain told a rally in Columbus, Ohio. “Senator Obama took a very different approach to the crisis our country faced. At first he didn't want to get involved. Then he was monitoring the situation.”
McCain, grinning, flashed a sarcastic thumbs-up.

“That's not leadership. That's watching from the sidelines,” he added to cheers and applause.

Wisely, in retrospect, McCain initially had been more modest. On Sunday, he said on ABC’s “This Week” that congressional negotiators deserve “great credit” for the bipartisan deal. “"It wasn’t because of me,” McCain said. “They did it themselves.”

But at almost the same time, McCain senior adviser Steve Schmidt was saying on NBC’s “Meet the Press”: “What Senator McCain was able to do … was to help get all of the parties to the table. There had been announcements by Senate leaders saying that a deal had been reached earlier in the week. There were no votes for that deal.

“Senator McCain knew time was short and he came back, he listened and he helped put together the framework of getting everybody to the table, which was necessary to produce a package to avoid a financial catastrophe for this country.”

On Monday morning, McCain campaign communications director Jill Hazelbaker said on Fox News that the deal would not have happened “without Senator McCain.”

“Senator McCain interrupted his campaign, suspended his campaign activity to come back to Washington to get Republicans around a table,” Hazelbaker said. “Without Senator McCain, House Republicans would not have appointed a negotiator, which would not have moved this bill forward.

“It’s really Senator McCain who got all parties around a table to hammer out a deal that hopefully is in the best interests of the American taxpayer.”

After the vote, commentators were harsh. MSNBC’s Chris Matthews said: “He’s like a cavalry commander who said ‘Charge!’ and the Republicans went into retreat.”


http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.cfm?uuid=AF9F10EC-18FE-70B2-A82949C5A24271A8

Stock market fell 730 points or so today, making it a true disaster of a Monday...

Cycloptichorn
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:11 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, Don't count on it; the conservatives are already blaming the democrats for the failure to pass the bailout legislation.
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:14 pm
@cicerone imposter,
The Democrats worked the bill through committees they control. The Democrats introduced the bill as a Democrat bill. The Speaker of House, a Democrat, and Barack Obama, leader of the Democrat party, urged passage of the bill. The Democrats have a substantial majority in the House and could have passed the bill without a single Republican vote.

Why shouldn't conservatives and everybody else blame the Democrats for failure to pass the bill?
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:20 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre: "Why shouldn't conservatives and everybody else blame the Democrats for failure to pass the bill?"

Blame? The Democrats brought 60 percent of their House body votes to the table. If the conservatives want this bill, where are their Republican votes?

In other words, the Republicans want the government to infuse 700 billion into the economy, but they don't want to take the "blame" for using taxpayer money to do it. The Conservatives want the cake, they want to eat it, but they don't want any "flour" on their hands for helping to bake the cake.

Foxfyre
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:22 pm
@Debra Law,
Apparently the majority of Republicans didn't like the bill as the Democrats wrote it. So they voted against it.

It was the Democrat's bill and they didn't pass it even though they didn't need a single Republican vote to do so and they actually got 1/3 of the Republicans to vote for it.

So how good a bill do you think it really was? Hmmmm?

It wouldn't have taken very many Democrats voting with the Republicans in 2003 to have prevented us having to deal with this whole bailout fiasco at all. Where were the Democrats then? Hmmmmm? The two parties were more even then than now and it wouldn't have taken a lot of Democrats crossing over to have passed that legislation. But it only took a few Republicans joining the Democrats to scuttle it.

Politics is strange stuff when it comes to finger pointing.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:26 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Apparently the majority of Republicans didn't like the bill as the Democrats wrote it. So they voted against it.

It was the Democrat's bill and they didn't pass it even though they didn't need a single Republican vote to do so and they actually got 1/3 of the Republicans to vote for it.

So how good a bill do you think it really was? Hmmmm?


C'mon, Fox, enough with the games.

It was a shitty bill and everyone knew it. The whole situation sucks. There is no good solution, as you and we all know.

The Republicans decided to play a game and hang this around the Dems' kneck. It failed. They are now going to get blamed for it failing, as they couldn't even get 1/3rd of their caucus to vote for the bill; legislation like this has to be bipartisan if it is to have any hope of success.

I know that Republicans like to blame Democrats for every financial problem, and the opposite is true too. Unfortunately, it turns out that Independents like to blame Republicans too. McCain's boasting about being the one to get the bill passed this morning was also, tactically, a huge disaster. He got stabbed in the back by Boehner and the house Republicans.

McCain is finished.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
It wasn't McCain's bill. McCain is the Republican, remember? So why would he be finished? McCain isn't in the House. McCain's name isn't on the bill. Obama also encouraged passage of the bill and bragged that what he wanted was in it and it was HIS party that wrote and pushed the bill. Why wouldn't he be finished if anybody is finished?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:28 pm
@Foxfyre,
No, if it went well, McCain wanted credit for it. ha ha ha....

That's what conservatives call "leadership."
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

It wasn't McCain's bill. McCain is the Republican, remember? So why would he be finished? McCain isn't in the House. McCain's name isn't on the bill. Obama also encouraged passage of the bill and bragged that what he wanted was in it and it was HIS party that wrote and pushed the bill. Why wouldn't he be finished if anybody is finished?


Fox, McCain took credit for passing the bill THIS MORNING, right before it failed and he went down with it. He said that his influence got people to agree, and Obama did nothing.

McCain is finished, and it's not going to be pretty.

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Link please?
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:34 pm
@Foxfyre,
In Columbus, Ohio - it was on our tv news here and is broadly published onlene, too.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:35 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Link please?


Fox, it's on this same page. Do you read the things others post?

http://able2know.org/topic/121961-55#post-3419159

Cycloptichorn
JamesMorrison
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:38 pm
@Foxfyre,
I am sorry I saw that video, it just brings back all kinds of bad feelings and memories. It is sad because there is not much individuals can do given the way Congress is structured and gets bills passed. Earmarks are the classic case where they are added at the very last minutes to important legislation that has been wrangled over and much thought and compromise has gone into them. But in order to pass the legislation members are forced to vote for the whole thing or see it die. It would make an excellent Republican ad though. They could scrape up the money, slow it down, play it in its entirety on national TV, and post it on the internet so people could Google It!

The measure passed by Congress to mandate increased sub-prime lending was a big part of the cause of our current problem and justifies an adversity towards the government constantly trying to pick economic favorites, whether it be subsidies for ethanol, solar, and wind alternative energy sources or those that increase lending to those who are ill prepared to pay their debts. To help find guilty parties investigators into crimes always ask Cui Bono (who benefits)? Here we find that taxpayers, overall, do not benefit from the Democratic social engineering that artificially created the housing bubble/crisis, only the politicians do by using taxpayer money as slush funds to make themselves look good to their constituents. That's why it's important to make government smaller--the less money it gets the more honest we can keep the politicians. George Will once said: wise government should be informed as to what it can and cannot do and, if it can, whether it should. I don't feel an Obama executive and Democratic Congress will constitute such an institution. McCain seems much more likely to tap the breaks on an overzealous congress than does Obama.

Although the social engineering of the congress is the most egregious and preventable of economical ills, the second part of the financial crisis is due to a lack of transparency and just plain greed. As we all know MBS (mortgage Backed Securities) are individual mortgages bundled together to form a security (like a bond) that is required to be purchased and then gives a return. But, the lack of transparency argument only flies so far. Yes, different sub-prime mortgages are packed together but the return on that security is directly proportional to the risk involved. The higher risk (greater possibility of default) of the mortgage the greater the monetary return. There is a price signal that cannot be ignored so initially transparency is not the problem. Transparency enters as these securities are sold and resold to different banks. Compounding this we have greed entering in the equation when large banks use leverage (they borrow money) to buy even more of the products to, hopefully make even more money. Some even went as high as 30 to 1 ratio of leverage (Their down payment on $3000 worth of security was only $100). When those mortgages started to fail (burst housing bubble) not only did they lose their value but they also owed the balance on their leveraged accounts--the $2900. We could also at this point mention government (IRS) banking rules known as "mark to market" which further aggravates the problem, but I think the point is made. All this was started and aggravated by Congress pushing more and more money (taxpayer money) into the housing market. We have recently seen the same thing in the ethanol/corn/meat relationship.

Pricing of assets and products is important. Economists tell us that correct pricing prevents the misallocation of assets. This means we put our money where we get the most return and return is not always defined, immediately, as dollars. The price also reflects value, both market and personal. Government incursion into markets always distorts prices and sometime moral values. Take public housing. Why doesn't this seem to work in the long term? Why do these units unfailingly descend into public hell-holes? Why do the residents thereof treat their own homes as if they have no value? You only have to ask how much they paid for them to get your answer. But is this all these people's fault? I think government has for generations made those at this income level economic slaves, literally. There are special interests that are a force to be reckoned with within our government that benefit by keeping these poor people out of the job market. Bill Cosby sees what this is doing to these people, and sees moral degradation. He's right and Jessie Jackson is wrong.

Finally, we are a debt society. Our government has played a large part in making this so. Tax laws and government programs favor debt and punish saving. Work hard and put your money in a savings account the government has its hand out. Try to invest in the economy by buying stocks and getting a return on your investment (Dividends) its hand is out. Sell those stocks at a profit it has its hand out. Used to be (pre-Reagan) you could deduct all interest charges, a form of tax subsidy. The Fed has kept interest rates very low and it has been argued this has contributed to the housing bubble. The cost of college education has soared to over 7 times that of inflation mostly because of government programs that not only inject more money into the market (but not more colleges) but actually give bigger loans to those with more debt. If you make a decent living, save all your life, paid off your own home, have some money in the bank, own your own car and paid your taxes, you are able to get a college loan of... nada. But if your income is decent, take out a large mortgage on a big house, and max out all your credit, your government college loan is increased. (If you really have money you can do the latter and put your kid in an apartment at school -- not the dorm, his own apartment. This allows him to have the appearance of living on his own which increases the loan amount which now pays for not only the schooling but the apartment itself which allows...)

Smaller government and some regulation and no regulation that mandates that private industry not perform due diligence in the course of its business.

JM

Debra Law
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:40 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre: "Apparently the majority of Republicans didn't like the bill as the Democrats wrote it. So they voted against it."

NOT TRUE. The Republican leaders in Congress had their input and hands in every detail of the bill. It was a compromise bill. You contribute your partisan rancor and "blame the Democrats" mantra to the discussion, but you make no effort to inform yourself and understand why the bill failed. Without bipartisan support, there is no hope for an economic recovery bill to pass.
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:43 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Oh that. Opinion expressed by an anti-McCain pundit? No direct quotes? Hmmm. How reliable do you think that is. As much as this?

Quote:
By POLITICO STAFF | 9/29/08 3:31 PM EDT

Shortly after the bailout vote, a statement from the campaign of Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) blamed the loss on "the Democratic leadership: Senators [Barack] Obama and [Harry] Reid, Speaker [Nancy] Pelosi and others.

"Their partisan attacks were an effort to gain political advantage during a national economic crisis. By doing so, they put at risk the homes, livelihoods and savings of millions of American families," said the statement, released in the name of senior policy adviser Douglas Holtz-Eakin.

Here is the text of the statement:

“From the minute John McCain suspended his campaign and arrived in Washington to address this crisis, he was attacked by the Democratic leadership: Senators Obama and Reid, Speaker Pelosi and others. Their partisan attacks were an effort to gain political advantage during a national economic crisis. By doing so, they put at risk the homes, livelihoods and savings of millions of American families.

“Barack Obama failed to lead, phoned it in, attacked John McCain, and refused to even say if he supported the final bill.

“Just before the vote, when the outcome was still in doubt, Speaker Pelosi gave a strongly worded partisan speech and poisoned the outcome.

“This bill failed because Barack Obama and the Democrats put politics ahead of country.” " McCain-Palin senior policy adviser Doug Holtz-Eakin

Before McCain Came To Washington, Senate Democrats Called On McCain For Leadership In Economic Crisis

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV): "We Need The Republican Nominee For President To Let Us Know Where He Stands And What We Should Do." Reid: "We need, now, the Republicans to start producing some votes for us. We need the Republican nominee for president to let us know where he stands and what we should do
http://aolsearch.aol.com/aol/search?[url]encquery=a740b942e19a85b797ba6fc5fba9007aa2402f52eb2e54616e7540c18b2c31d75635a74abaf947b9&invocationType=keyword_rollover&ie=UTF-8[/url]
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:43 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote: ". . . legislation like this has to be bipartisan if it is to have any hope of success."

EXACTLY.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:45 pm
@Debra Law,
Frankly, I liked the republican contributions over this legislation more than the democrats'.
Foxfyre
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:46 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

Foxfyre: "Apparently the majority of Republicans didn't like the bill as the Democrats wrote it. So they voted against it."

NOT TRUE. The Republican leaders in Congress had their input and hands in every detail of the bill. It was a compromise bill. You contribute your partisan rancor and "blame the Democrats" mantra to the discussion, but you make no effort to inform yourself and understand why the bill failed. Without bipartisan support, there is no hope for an economic recovery bill to pass.



Debra, 1/3 of the Republicans DID vote for the bill. You guys had a substantial majority in the house and didn't need ANY Republican votes to pass the bill. Had it passed, the Democrats would have been bragging about forging a bi-partisan bill. But 40%--that's 40%!!!!--of Democrats voted against it. Almost as many total Democrats as total Republicans voted against it.

And you want to blame the Republicans for the Democrats not passing a bill they had enough votes to pass?

Come on. Even you aren't that blindly partisan.
 

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