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FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 12:09 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Well Walt--it is easy to imagine being pissed off when you've been on the front-line for your country and been lucky to get back in one piece and you find a bunch of wets pissing it up against the wall in order to slake the lusts of the mob.

Roman soldiers are on the record about that. Sometimes with more than just words.

And what would you like to bring to Afghanistan and Iraq?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 12:19 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Well, Walter, I have lived over 60 years and have seen a few things, and I have studied politics here for a very long time. I have a college education, worked for a corporation in the energy business, and have successfully run my own business for a long time, so I understand how the world works and how to be successful, and I am married to the same woman I married a long time ago, and I still love her and she loves me, and I am a grandfather, and I served in the military and a Vietnam vet, and I have traveled abroad. I also know people that have personally served in Iraq. I guess that makes me uninformed. I am sorry that you believe that only the intellectuals are the informed, Walter. I think it is sad that I have to explain all of the above to you, but I feel I have earned my opinion, and I respectfully submit that I may know more about elections and this country than you may think that you do. I have a country, I helped pay for it, some of my relatives also helped pay for it, and incidentally some of them helped pay for your Germany surviving the years of a madman by the name of Adolph Hitler.

In regard to Afghanistan and Iraq, look, I do not believe good things happen easily, but I do believe that what has always been does not have to continue forever, and I do believe the the Iraqis are better off without Saddam Hussein murdering them and burying them in pits, and I don't think we need to worry any longer about Saddams WMD programs. But sure, there will always be things to worry about, but cross that bridge when we get there. I also believe Bush is an honorable man, and the Congress approved going to war, based upon the information known at the time. I also know Bush has been demonized and torn apart for 8 years by the opposing politicians, primarily for political expediency.

The world will never be a totally pacified world, as it is simply not human nature. Hey, alot of people cannot even live peacefully in their own homes, with each other. But to simply roll over and give into evil is not the answer.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 12:29 pm
@okie,
I might have preferred a comma after the "incidentally" okie. I think a pause is required to draw breath for the next bit. Even a colon.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 12:52 pm
@spendius,
Sorry, Spendius, about, uh, the, uh, comma.

I feel better now after telling Walter what for. Don't you ever get on your soap box?
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 12:55 pm
@okie,
Quote:
I do believe the the Iraqis are better off without Saddam Hussein murdering them and burying them in pits.


And the rest which is too evil to repeat.

Such things as that prevent us from enjoying the good things in life. There's nothing heroic about that stuff that guy did. It's heroic trying to stop it. Which we will. It's our mission. We are so much cleverer than monkeys that explaining that monkeys evolved from pebbles would be easier than explaining how we evolved from monkeys.

The problem with Saddam is that he was a bloke like us. Is that in all of us? It's not in me. A book of verse, a flask of wine and Thou beside me singing in the wilderness is more my style. **** taking the salute at the big parade. In that heat. Sheesh. Beating the sweat of your people into gold inlays in one of your bathroom ceilings.

It has to go.

A cross is not our totem for nothing. "ask what you can do for your country". Having a big party in the park and cheering, abstractedly, lines like "calloused hand on calloused hand, is not much of a sacrifice. Both quotes patent bullshit.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 01:08 pm
@okie,
Quote:
I feel better now after telling Walter what for. Don't you ever get on your soap box?


I assume everybody is on a soap-box all the time. I have to include myself for obvious reasons.

But I recognised a lot in that post and you expressed it very well.

The problem is that the vet goes off to the front with patriotic sounds ringing in his ears about the glory of our nation and with flags and brass bands and looking smart and his mum sure is proud of him. And then he gets this doom and gloom about rebuilding the country as if it was a heap of smouldering stones. And he's promised callouses on callouses for the long haul.

It's bad for morale all that youthful fervour turning into damp ashes in his mouth. (That a Flaubert joke.)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 01:10 pm
@okie,
I'm not going to list what I've done because what you did or didn't wasn't a topic for me.


I just and only wanted to say that in my opinion your above response isn't exactly a splendid example to show how democracy works.
And what free elections do.


That has nothing to do with your academic degrees, the love of your wife and/or dead Irakis.


But thanks (again) that your relatives paid for me. (Actually, I was born in 1949 - and in that part of Germany which was the United Kingdom's sector.)
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 01:16 pm
@spendius,
Spendius, I seem to detect in you a guy that is pretty much disillusioned on the world and humanity in general, or even in an after-life. You see the folly in all of the politicians, left and right. I agree to a point, that politics has never been, nor will it ever be, an end unto itself. As long as men (or women) are involved in governing, it is best not to put much faith in it.

So, can you agree the best government just leaves us alone, to let us succeed or fail, but at least we are free to do whatever we want, as long as we are not hurting society or our neighbor in any serious way. Wasn't that the American way, the American dream? I thought it was. Its called freedom.

On the subject of dictators and madmen, have you looked at my thread from a very long time ago? I hesitate to bring this up in regard to Obama, he isn't a real good fit, but there are some troubling aspects of his personality, one being the burning desire to right all the wrongs, which is common to these personality types. And all they need is a willing electorate to buy into their poison. Let us hope Obama turns out to be okay, but there is little doubt that all of this change business that he keeps talking about is pretty troubling, especially when you see all the supporters and their fanaticism. And now he may be bringing in Rahm Emanuel, which is another very very angry guy with a big axe to grind.

http://able2know.org/topic/66117-1
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 01:17 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Quote:
I just and only wanted to say that in my opinion your above response isn't exactly a splendid example to show how democracy works.


How does democracy work Walt? Is it spend 5 times more than your opponent and you win. Where is most of that money now?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 01:28 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

I'm not going to list what I've done because what you did or didn't wasn't a topic for me.


I just and only wanted to say that in my opinion your above response isn't exactly a splendid example to show how democracy works.
And what free elections do.


That has nothing to do with your academic degrees, the love of your wife and/or dead Irakis.


But thanks (again) that your relatives paid for me. (Actually, I was born in 1949 - and in that part of Germany which was the United Kingdom's sector.)

Well, I listed the accomplishments for a reason, not that they are very extraordinary or different than lots of people, but basically I get tired of condescending comments about somebody's credentials. For example, on the subject of elections here, you know nothing in terms of actual experience, nor do you live here, so how do you profess to know anything at all about it? I know plenty of people that are blue collar, that work in the trades, without any degree at all, that are smarter than me, and probably you. A degree does not make you superior to anyone.

And my relatives did pay for you, Walter, whether you were born yet or not.
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 01:37 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:

And my relatives did pay for you, Walter, whether you were born yet or not.


Thanks again, okie. It's very much appreciated.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 01:48 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Hey Walter, I have been reading some books, on the runup to WWII, now the invasion of Normandy, etc. One thing struck me, the world did not want another war, and they didn't want it so bad that they appeased an obvious problem by the name of Hitler. They looked the other way, and pretended all would be okay, but in the long run it caused alot more death and suffering than if they had stopped him before he went as far as he did.

From my experiences, I would not blame some of the Germans of that day alone, but I blame human nature, the same thing can happen anywhere, and it could happen again, and probably will happen again. All that is necessary is fertile ground, a citizenry ripe for the taking, and a bad guy or movement to take advantage of them.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 01:50 pm
@okie,
Quote:
Spendius, I seem to detect in you a guy that is pretty much disillusioned on the world and humanity in general, or even in an after-life.


I have experienced disillusion. I got over it. Not about after-lives though. I have no idea about that and I think anybody who has is a bit mad. I assume most of them are only acting anyway.

Quote:
You see the folly in all of the politicians, left and right.


Not folly, except insofar as being a politician is not foolish. I see ordinary guys struggling with forces they can't really be expected to contend with. Amusing I suppose more than foolish. Like wrestling with the monster myths. And slaying it of course.

I admire them actually. And I am fully aware of them being necessary. And I have a lot of faith in them. A similar sort of faith as I have in the people who run the railways. Which is much easier.

And I like to think that I know what they are for. It is to bring our Christian message to the world. And we are doing.

Quote:
So, can you agree the best government just leaves us alone, to let us succeed or fail, but at least we are free to do whatever we want?


No. I can't agree with that. It would be ghastly. It would be okay in Eden. But 304 million in this set up it's a ridiculous idea.

I assume that a "burning desire to right all wrongs" is a necessary characteristic for a successful politician. W.C.Fields would never have won office. The desire is soon extinguished by the facts though once they are on the desk where the buck stops. Then it's firefighting.

Question for liberals-- if your house was on fire with you and yours trapped upstairs would you prefer an all male firecrew to attend or one based on equality of opportunity?

Mrs Palin was a millstone.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 02:40 pm
Freeduck writes
Quote:
I think you are exaggerating a tad. Not a single kind word about any Republican? Really? And you are running a comprehensive tabulation of all the Democrats who ever lifted a finger to try to solve our problems?


The only Republican leaders I can recall the Democrats applauding about anything were those who defected to the Democrats' side. And I can recall only a very few Democrat leaders who attempted to help President Bush get anything done. Lieberman was one and the Democrats threw him under the bus. The only one exaggerating though is you. I didn't say there was not a single kind word about any Republican. I did say that they were darn scarce.

As for your comments re not retreating into partisanship because of a few hateful numbnuts on your side, point well taken, but it is not my style to judge the many by the actions of a few.

As for just some of what President Bush asked of us in the first year and beyond:

1. Reform social security. Do a trial run with a tiny amount of voluntary private accounts to see if that bird would fly. The Left spit in his face and the GOP leaders were too timid to attempt it without some bipartisan support.

2. He asked that we all pitch in with a cooperative government/private charity effort to deal with many problems to help the less fortunate. The left spit in his face. (He did try to do that too, but without significant effort from the grass roots it was nowhere nearly as effective as it could have been.)

3. He asked that we give school vouchers an honest hearing to force poor schools to clean up their acts. The left spit in his face and the GOP was too timid to force the issue without you.

4. He asked that the people join with him to give encouragement and support for a war against terror and refuse once and for all to accept terrorism as a norm of any kind. The left refused to give support and in fact mostly gave aid and comfort to the enemy by publicly condemning the quite effective efforts to deal with that while keeping Americans safe from harm.

5. He asked the the people support the troops and give them encouragement and moral support so that they could complete the task and come home with honor. The Left has mostly fought him every inch of the way on that.

And there has been precious little encouragement and prayers offered to sustain him and help him do his job better or to tell him when he has gotten it right. But there has been plenty of the hateful crap such as in those threads I linked that has been thrown at him for eight years. How does that motivate anybody to do things differently?

So now. Obama wants us to tune up our cars, inflate our tires, and be willing to send money to Washington without complaint. What else is he asking of us do you think?
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 02:56 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
As for just some of what President Bush asked of us in the first year and beyond:

1. Reform social security. Do a trial run with a tiny amount of voluntary private accounts to see if that bird would fly. The Left spit in his face and the GOP leaders were too timid to attempt it without some bipartisan support.
The left hardly "spit in his face." Your statement starts with hyperbole that is ridiculous and goes from there. No one spit in Bush's face. There was opposition to the issue but that is NOT the same thing as "spitting in his face."
Quote:

2. He asked that we all pitch in with a cooperative government/private charity effort to deal with many problems to help the less fortunate. The left spit in his face. (He did try to do that too, but without significant effort from the grass roots it was nowhere nearly as effective as it could have been.)
"Spit in his face" again? As far as I know the legislation was passed that allowed this.
Quote:

3. He asked that we give school vouchers an honest hearing to force poor schools to clean up their acts. The left spit in his face and the GOP was too timid to force the issue without you.
Ah, yes."spit in his face."
Quote:

4. He asked that the people join with him to give encouragement and support for a war against terror and refuse once and for all to accept terrorism as a norm of any kind. The left refused to give support and in fact mostly gave aid and comfort to the enemy by publicly condemning the quite effective efforts to deal with that while keeping Americans safe from harm.
Now you switch to "aid and comfort to the enemy." Ridiculous Fox. Can't you make an argument without over the top hyperbole?
Quote:

5. He asked the the people support the troops and give them encouragement and moral support so that they could complete the task and come home with honor. The Left has mostly fought him every inch of the way on that.
He never defined the task. Anyone that asked for a definition was called unpatriotic and antitroop by some if not many. The left never fought him in "supporting the troops." They fought the lack of a defined mission. Even today, you can't define "victory" in a reasoned manner.
Quote:

And there has been precious little encouragement and prayers offered to sustain him and help him do his job better or to tell him when he has gotten it right. But there has been plenty of the hateful crap such as in those threads I linked that has been thrown at him for eight years. How does that motivate anybody to do things differently?
Bush had 90% support in 2001. He squandered it by over reaching. He didn't start out being hated and reviled. He was supported by both sides. Let's see if Obama even reaches 60% support in his first year.
Quote:

So now. Obama wants us to tune up our cars, inflate our tires, and be willing to send money to Washington without complaint. What else is he asking of us do you think?
How about being a patriotic American and supporting your President as conservatives demanded everyone do when Bush was president? Get down off your high hobby horse Fox. You look silly rocking back and forth claiming you are on some noble crusade.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 02:58 pm
@okie,
okie- I just heard Mr Obama say- In America our destiny is not written for us, we write our own destiny. That sort of hubris I find often goes with the righting all wrongs desire.

I've heard versions in the pub.

What's interesting is the chord it has struck in the ear of the population when rhetorical skills are applied to it. Some of the displays of enthusiasm I've seen at the gigs are not something we are used to at political rallies. They look a bit hysterical to an English eye.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 03:42 pm
@okie,
Okie, I have to stick up for Spendi a bit here. Yes, he posts in riddles--try standing on your head and reciting them backwards and they do seem a bit clearer--and yes, he sometimes pulls your chain by posting complete foolishness. The difference between Spendi and some others though, is that he KNOWS when he posts foolishness and he does it on purpose. And if you work around all that stuff, you find some real gems in there.

Sorry Spendi. I probably totally wrecked your reputations by defending you, but after the soapbox analogy and all. . . .

Well, you know. . . .
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 04:19 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Quote:
So, can you agree the best government just leaves us alone, to let us succeed or fail, but at least we are free to do whatever we want?


No. I can't agree with that. It would be ghastly. It would be okay in Eden. But 304 million in this set up it's a ridiculous idea.
I notice you left out some of what I said, which was an important part of what I said, which said we can be free to do what we want as long as we don't harm each other. I don't think it is a ridiculous idea at all, in fact it has worked pretty well, I thought. Of course there is a framework or structured society in which that behavior is put into play.

I'm glad you see through the fanaticism for Obama, or at least you seem to, if I interpret your posts correctly. Did you look at my link about the dictators? I am interested in what you think.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 04:20 pm
@Foxfyre,
I have complimented him also on some of his insightful comments.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 04:26 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:

How about being a patriotic American and supporting your President as conservatives demanded everyone do when Bush was president? Get down off your high hobby horse Fox. You look silly rocking back and forth claiming you are on some noble crusade.

I don't think this is a fair criticism of Foxfyre. She has actually been one of the more reasonable folks on A2K who supported McCain. We disagree on what Bush ever asked the people to do -- I would argue that in every example of hers he was asking us to let him do stuff. But we won't agree and frankly, I'm tired of talking about Bush. Regardless, Fox has been much more supportive than some other folks here, and I think we should acknowledge that.
 

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