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FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 04:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
No apologies needed Foxy. I don't mind what anybody says about me. If I did I would be at their mercy.

My posts are not riddles to me. Give me an example of what you consider a foolishness and I will try to explain.

I have some basic questions. Are we right to encourage the business/work ethic at this point. Relying on regulation to control it seems to me to underestimate the power of that ethic. I'm not saying we are not right. I'm asking that it be considered. There's nothing new in it. There's a whole genre of songs and characters in drama who represent it. Lucky Ol' Sun for example.

And Media is fully bought into the business/work ethic.

I don't know. Dylan says that there's no going back and that we're going all the way till the wheels fall off and burn. Which is a warning basically and not a prediction. Like when you're told you're going to step in some dogshit and you don't because you were warned.

0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 04:40 pm
@FreeDuck,
I realize that Duck, my statement was in response to her question of what else Obama may ask.

The final 2 sentences should have been a separate paragraph and are in response to Fox's statement.
Quote:
The only one exaggerating though is you. I didn't say there was not a single kind word about any Republican. I did say that they were darn scarce.

As for your comments re not retreating into partisanship because of a few hateful numbnuts on your side, point well taken, but it is not my style to judge the many by the actions of a few.
That is what she said before she launched into accusing all liberals of spitting in Bush's face and not supporting the troops. Her claims of not judging many by the actions of a few are complete bunk. She is exaggerating. She is the one judging many by the few while claiming to be better than that. Yet she can't see it and refuses to accept it when it is pointed out.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 04:40 pm
@FreeDuck,
Well thank you Ms. Duck. I appreciate that. No, we don't agree on many things and likely never will. But as long as the lines of communication stay open, each of us (representing an ideology or agenda) are less likely to do harm to the other. At the very least, civility is much more pleasant than incivility.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 04:50 pm
@Foxfyre,
I'll drink to that.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 05:23 pm
@FreeDuck,
Quote:
I do appreciate your words about Obama's victory and your willingness to give him a chance. Please don't focus on the one or two slights from gloaters -- they are not in the majority. When you latch on to these sentiments and allow these people to speak for all Obama supporters then you allow no room for compromise and cooperation. You can choose who to listen to, just as I did back in 2004 in the face of images of crying babies and condescension and gloating. And I'm doing it now in the face of long anti-liberal screeds by disappointed Republicans (I mean, how can I be gangster Eurotrash AND a rich elite at the same time?). I choose to let you and Ticomaya and others like you speak for Republicans and conservatives, and not the RexReds and others like him. You can put people on ignore for a while if you need to. But you can't let these few people push you into the partisan corner.



What she said. Or, as some of the more hip would say, "Word."
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 06:04 pm
@okie,
Quote:
I notice you left out some of what I said, which was an important part of what I said, which said we can be free to do what we want as long as we don't harm each other.


I don't see that as a realistic possibility. That's why I left it out. It is a gradation of harm to others. Not doing harm to others is an absolute position. And has to be balanced against the good that might come from harming others. And who or what "others" means.

I have not seen your link to dictators. I have read Reich's Mass Psychology of Fascism though. A long time ago. I suppose there might still be some reverb going on from that.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 06:10 pm
@Butrflynet,
quoted-

Quote:
I do appreciate your words about Obama's victory and your willingness to give him a chance.


I don't think we now have the luxury of being willing or not. We are stuck with it aren't we?
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Wed 5 Nov, 2008 10:53 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
I notice you left out some of what I said, which was an important part of what I said, which said we can be free to do what we want as long as we don't harm each other.


I don't see that as a realistic possibility. That's why I left it out. It is a gradation of harm to others. Not doing harm to others is an absolute position. And has to be balanced against the good that might come from harming others. And who or what "others" means.

Now thats a tough opinion to defend, spendius. I don't think you can sell the idea that harm to others is perhaps common or necessary. In a world where self interest prevails, as in a free market system, any transaction is a trade, a trade that benefits both parties, no harm at all. Its just that your interest is different than mine, you may need the car, while I need the cash you pay for the car, thus I sell you a car, both of us benefit, just an example. If no transactions occur, most of us starve, now that is harm.

Quote:
I have not seen your link to dictators. I have read Reich's Mass Psychology of Fascism though. A long time ago. I suppose there might still be some reverb going on from that.

Here is the link again:
http://able2know.org/topic/66117-1
I compared several dictators, in terms of their upbringing and mindsets, and I came up with some common denominators.

Now, I find it bothersome that some degree of these things can be found with Obama. Now, before you dismiss this, I will say, I could be totally off base and overly nervous. We also have some insurances built into the system, hopefully sufficient, so that any president, no matter what his worst intents could be, is pretty boxed in, in terms of what he is capable of doing wrong, his power should be sufficiently limited. And remember this, alot of these guys with big ambitions start out with grandiose goals of wonderful and benevolent achievements, they do not perceive it as wrong, but somewhere along the way if they are stifled and frustrated, they can turn into some very bad apples indeed, and any end justifies the means.

Again, to anyone reading this, I am not predicting the worst with Obama, he could turn out wonderful, I hope he does, but I am saying this, that there are some red flags to pay attention to out there, things to take note of, and be aware of. Among the red flags is the extreme fanaticism, bordering on worship for this man, something I am having a hard time understanding or comprehending why. He has evidently tapped into a reservoir of anger and unhappiness out there, which I also have a hard time understanding.

Important to point out that I did that thread about ruthless dictators a long time ago, before the set of circumstances we have today, but I have long believed that the biggest danger for another madman will come from the left, not the right. I have my reasons.

To summarize, to all people, I am not borrowing trouble where there is none. I am not accusing Obama of being a madman, compared to Hitler, no way, but what I am doing is reminding people of the dangers of placing too much faith and adulation into one man, and I am warning of a man that has promised some very lofty things, too lofty to be practical, and too lofty to even understand because he leaves them purposely vague, and so I think it is troubling, and I am nervous. I still hope for the best, and I hope I am pleasantly surprised.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 09:07 am
@okie,
Quote:
Now thats a tough opinion to defend, spendius.


Not at all. It's not even an opinion. It's a fact. Maybe it depends how the language is used. It is tough to accept though.

Your example of the car sale is much too limited. It assumes owning a car is not harmful to others. It assumes that the money used from the sale in not harmful to others.

I've read your essay on dictators. I don't think it is a subject which can be dealt with in that way. Chance is a large factor.

I don't think there is any chance of a mad dictator appearing in our midst again. It could happen I suppose in the event of a catastrophe of some sort but I don't see that either.

But I agree that the mindless hysteria I have seen recently is not a good sign. When people start worshipping politicians there is something amiss. As I have said before, in England we think of them as a species of vermin. All of them. The idea of standing in the rain queueing for hours to vote is a joke here.
Gargamel
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 10:59 am
@spendius,
So do you use a ladder to get onto that horse of yours? Some kind of elevator? Just curious.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 11:53 am
@okie,
okie wrote:
Among the red flags is the extreme fanaticism, bordering on worship for this man, something I am having a hard time understanding or comprehending why. He has evidently tapped into a reservoir of anger and unhappiness out there, which I also have a hard time understanding.


It's not "extreme fanaticism." It's not worship. It's not a "messiah or savior complex" as Foxfyre frequently accuses. It's 52.4 percent of Americans rejecting the politics of divisiveness (that has been the cornerstone of the modern-era Republican party) and looking for unity. If you feel that Obama tapped into a reservoir of anger and unhappiness--perhaps it's your own anger and unhappiness. Perhaps you thrive on divisive issues. Perhaps you need to try to understand yourself.

If a political party wins an election for high government office by dividing the people into two camps vehemently opposed to each other--the "us against them" on issues A, B, & C--then winning is futile because the work of actually governing a divided people is impossible. Nothing gets accomplished--no progress is made. The problems of our country remain unresolved and get swept under the carpet from one administration to the next. We finally reached a point in our history when there wasn't any more room under the carpet. We have to face reality and do something to make our government effective.

President-Elect Obama has said many times that there are many issues upon which we as Americans will never agree, but we can't let those issues divide us as a people. We need to find the things that we can agree on and move forward. The people who voted for Obama want unity so that we can work effectively on our national problems--and Obama gave us hope for that unity. McCain didn't do that.

okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 6 Nov, 2008 10:48 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

okie wrote:
Among the red flags is the extreme fanaticism, bordering on worship for this man, something I am having a hard time understanding or comprehending why. He has evidently tapped into a reservoir of anger and unhappiness out there, which I also have a hard time understanding.


It's not "extreme fanaticism." It's not worship. It's not a "messiah or savior complex" as Foxfyre frequently accuses. It's 52.4 percent of Americans rejecting the politics of divisiveness (that has been the cornerstone of the modern-era Republican party) and looking for unity. If you feel that Obama tapped into a reservoir of anger and unhappiness--perhaps it's your own anger and unhappiness. Perhaps you thrive on divisive issues. Perhaps you need to try to understand yourself.

Where do you get these cookie cutter answers?

Quote:
If a political party wins an election for high government office by dividing the people into two camps vehemently opposed to each other--the "us against them" on issues A, B, & C--then winning is futile because the work of actually governing a divided people is impossible. Nothing gets accomplished--no progress is made. The problems of our country remain unresolved and get swept under the carpet from one administration to the next. We finally reached a point in our history when there wasn't any more room under the carpet. We have to face reality and do something to make our government effective.

President-Elect Obama has said many times that there are many issues upon which we as Americans will never agree, but we can't let those issues divide us as a people. We need to find the things that we can agree on and move forward. The people who voted for Obama want unity so that we can work effectively on our national problems--and Obama gave us hope for that unity. McCain didn't do that.


Obviously I disagree with you on many points. The country has always had problems and always will. All problems will never be solved, so you can quit deluding yourself into believing they can. Secondly, the United States has never thrived on complete unity without disagreement, we have always disagreed about issues. Debate is healthy. I will agree however that we have never disagreed about certain core issues, such as constitutional principles and traditional values, starting with the fact that our rights emanate from God himself, not government. The left has now begun to challenge some very basic values, such as these, and I suspect it will before long become more openly things like capitalism being called into question.

I remain a proud American, happy with it, as I have always been, as my parents were, as the people were that gave their lives for it, and thus I will speak up in defense of the country against the malcontents, which apparently includes alot of people.
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 12:57 am
@okie,
Quote:
Obviously I disagree with you on many points. The country has always had problems and always will. All problems will never be solved, so you can quit deluding yourself into believing they can.

Obviously, you can't argue with what Debra said, so you just make stuff up.
Debra at no time said we can solve all problems. She never said we can solve most problems.

The only one delusional here is you okie in your statement about what Debra said.

You ARE the malcontent okie. It is you that is whining, not those that supported Obama. The left are going to call into question capitalism? What world do you live in okie. Bush just had the government take control of banks. Do you even think about the real world?
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 05:00 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
The left are going to call into question capitalism?

Answer your own question. Is the left going to do that? If so how?

What are some of the left's questions?

Do they think themselves required to limit federal government powers to those specific powers delegated to the federal government by the USA Constitution as currently amended?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 7 Nov, 2008 05:52 pm
@ican711nm,
The right certainly hasn't restricted itself to limited government.

But you are the guy that keeps saying the constitution doesn't allow the present income tax so I don't know how you expect us to take your comments.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2008 12:02 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
The right certainly hasn't restricted itself to limited government.

But you are the guy that keeps saying the constitution doesn't allow the present income tax so I don't know how you expect us to take your comments.

Regardless of what Democrats and Republicans, not Conservatives, have done, it would be helpful if you answered my question:
Does the left think themselves required to limit federal government powers to those specific powers delegated to the federal government by the USA Constitution as currently amended?
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2008 11:24 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

parados wrote:
The right certainly hasn't restricted itself to limited government.

But you are the guy that keeps saying the constitution doesn't allow the present income tax so I don't know how you expect us to take your comments.

Regardless of what Democrats and Republicans, not Conservatives, have done, it would be helpful if you answered my question:
Does the left think themselves required to limit federal government powers to those specific powers delegated to the federal government by the USA Constitution as currently amended?

To answer for Parados, no, they don't, ican. Otherwise they wouldn't be pushing Marxist or socialist ideas. And otherwise, Obama would not have formulated or launched his political career using principles advocated by Saul Alinsky.

ican, these people are coming closer to coming more out of the closet, but many lefties are in fact communists, socialists, or Marxists, always advocating a somewhat different hybrid of the same old worn out and failed ideas of the past. Sad, but we might as well recognize it, ican, for what it is.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2008 06:00 pm
@okie,
You can't blame "socialism" for the mistakes of those who have so far experimented with it.

It might be necessary now. We have got it. It is a question of whether this attempt will be any better than previous ones. It has their mistakes to learn from at the least.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2008 06:11 pm
@spendius,
Nothing popular is any good. Uprisings never are.

Look at Pat Boone for example. Or Barry Manilow.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 10 Nov, 2008 06:15 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
You can't blame "socialism" for the mistakes of those who have so far experimented with it.
Of course, ican!

Socialism has failed repeatedly to lift the poor out of poverty. It has succeeded only in increasing the number of poor in its domain, and increasing the power of their would be lifters.

"The mentally ill keep repeating their same actions over and over expecting a different result."

 

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