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FINAL COUNTDOWN FOR USA ELECTION 2008

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:53 pm
@Foxfyre,
Faux. My god.

You state:

Quote:
Oh that. Opinion expressed by an anti-McCain pundit? No direct quotes? Hmmm. How reliable do you think that is. As much as this?


First of all, Mike Allen at the Politico could hardly be described as an 'anti-McCain pundit' and I would challenge you to find any sort of evidence to back that up.

Second, from that same piece, these are all direct quotes. What do you think all those quotation marks denote, Fox?

Quote:

“I've never been afraid of stepping in to solve problems for the American people, and I'm not going to stop now,” McCain told a rally in Columbus, Ohio. “Senator Obama took a very different approach to the crisis our country faced. At first he didn't want to get involved. Then he was monitoring the situation.”

McCain, grinning, flashed a sarcastic thumbs-up.

“That's not leadership. That's watching from the sidelines,”
he added to cheers and applause.

Wisely, in retrospect, McCain initially had been more modest. On Sunday, he said on ABC’s “This Week” that congressional negotiators deserve “great credit” for the bipartisan deal. “"It wasn’t because of me,” McCain said. “They did it themselves.”

But at almost the same time, McCain senior adviser Steve Schmidt was saying on NBC’s “Meet the Press”: “What Senator McCain was able to do … was to help get all of the parties to the table. There had been announcements by Senate leaders saying that a deal had been reached earlier in the week. There were no votes for that deal.


“Senator McCain knew time was short and he came back, he listened and he helped put together the framework of getting everybody to the table, which was necessary to produce a package to avoid a financial catastrophe for this country.”


Those are direct quotes from McCain and his top leadership. What you posted in response, was the McCain camp trying to pin this on Obama after the vote failed.

Please, Fox. Please. We are all begging you to be intellectually honest here.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:53 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Debra, 1/3 of the Republicans DID vote for the bill.
[...]
Come on. Even you aren't that blindly partisan.


Truly a big support for the Republican President!
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:55 pm
By the way, does anybody have any information who sponsored and cosponsored the defeated bill? All the text of the entire thing that I've seen have had a blank line for the sponsors and cosponsors.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:58 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote: "Almost as many total Democrats as total Republicans voted against it."

Foxfyre needs a remedial math course. These numbers are NOT "almost" the same:

67 percent--133 House Republicans voted NAY.

40 percent--94 House Democrats voted NAY.


The Democrats are not going to put those 10 votes on the table because, if they did, then the bill won't be a BIPARTISAN bill. If economic recovery legislation (in whatever form it takes) is NOT supported by BOTH parties, it won't get passed.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 03:18 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Debra, 1/3 of the Republicans DID vote for the bill.
[...]
Come on. Even you aren't that blindly partisan.


Truly a big support for the Republican President!


The President isn't running for re-election in five weeks. Most of those men and women voting today are and they are listening to what the people think about all this.

It was interesting that Ron Paul voted against it.
So did our one Democrat congressman plus one Republican congressman from New Mexico. Heather Wilson, the other Republican congressperson from New Mexico--the only one NOT running for election to anything in November--voted for it.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 03:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Frankly, I liked the republican contributions over this legislation more than the democrats'.


Well c.i.-- we all know you don't know which way up you are.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 03:28 pm
@Foxfyre,
Defending the Republicans for their non-support of their Republican administration leader, President Bush, Foxfyre wrote, "The President isn't running for re-election in five weeks."

This is the Republican "Land of Oz" diversionary tactic of "pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 03:29 pm
@spendius,
You and dys are becoming irritants like gnats. shush! SWAT!
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 03:29 pm
To what extent does the Nay/Yea split reflect rural/urban constituencies?
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 03:53 pm
@JamesMorrison,
I agree, and appreciate the time and effort you take in expressing yourself. Especially on point are your remarks about out having become a "debt society", and the Federal governments constant juggling to maintain a stable, controlled growth. Philosophically we've dug a pretty deep trench that may now be caving in on us. Less important in my mind than assessing blame, is the daunting question of how best to handle the current crisis.

Many believe that Pres. Hoover might have averted, or at least mitigated the Great Depression, if only his administration had acted promptly with massive Federal funding to prop up the disintegrating economy. He didn't for sound Constitutional and philosophical reasons, and FDR's put the US on a different set of tracks. The world's economy and political structure staggered into chaos that resulted in WWII. I'm sure the administration in proposing this bailout sincerely wanted to avoid a similar meltdown and world-wide crisis. Whether it would work as planned or not is uncertain.

The Democratic Congress took a three page proposal and made it their own. The bailout almost certainly needed adjustments, revisions, and guarantees that the money would be effectively spent with the least risk to tax payers. The Democrats produced a Bill that the administration and the GOP Presidential candidate backed more as a matter of urgency than love. The Republican minority in Congress hasn't been convinced that the Bill as presented is the correct one for dealing with the crisis. We are told that constituents across the land are overwhelmingly against it. I believe there is an unaddressed risk of setting off an inflation that might be as damaging as the stabilization the bailout is intended to produce. It seems Congress itself has grave doubts about the Bill since a sizable number of representatives both Parties voted against it.

If things go badly over the next few days and weeks the voters may blame either Party, even though neither is completely without fault. If, as we all hope, the crisis does not deepen significantly, neither Party nor their Presidential candidates will have had much to do with that outcome either.

The situation certainly appears grave, but the nation has periodically undergone economic downturns many times in its history. In each instance, a lot of people suffered great loss. Sometimes those troubled times led to a new political ascendancy, and a period of chaos often ended with war. The nation always survived, and once the suffering was behind us positive elements would be found and nostalgically remembered. Still, we should all fervently hope that the current economic crisis will pass quickly and as painlessly as possible. No one, no Party should be trying to "make hay" of this challenge, but that's too much to ask.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 04:20 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

By the way, does anybody have any information who sponsored and cosponsored the defeated bill? All the text of the entire thing that I've seen have had a blank line for the sponsors and cosponsors.


Repeating my question. Does anybody know who sponsored and cosponsored the defeated bill?
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 04:43 pm
@Foxfyre,
I think that would be Bush/Paulson.
Foxfyre
 
  4  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 04:56 pm
@ebrown p,
No I don't think so since neither have any authority whatsoever to introduce a bill into a House or Senate committee, much less on the House or Senate floor. But so far I have not seen a single copy of the bill that includes the sponsor and/or cosponsors. Nobody is really proud of this are they.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 04:59 pm
@Foxfyre,
That depends how you look at it Foxy. Not everybody who is proud of their work seeks public recognition.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 05:29 pm
Quote:
A Failure To Communicate (What We Have Here)

29 Sep 2008 05:50 pm

John McCain has a fundamental problem. It is that the country blames Republicans for this mess, this enormous, many-tentacled, fundamental economic failure, and McCain hasn't differentiated himself from his party enough. Indeed, as he met with Republicans last Thursday, he seemed to be the leader of their party. With wrong-track numbers hovering above 80 percent, the thumb is so much on the scale that the political universe is warped; no matter what, gravity pulls voters toward Barack Obama. The public will be forgiven for agreeing that Republican ideology created this mess, and Republican ideology prevented Republican House members from supporting a bipartisan consensus. Calling Obama a risky, big government liberal -- that hoary, basic, often effective Republican narrative device -- sounds just plain wacky.



The public basically understands the bailout as the government's being forced to give a lot of money to people who made bad decisions, and, of course the selling of the plan as a "bailout" doomed it from the beginning. Taxpayers are rightfully angry that they're being asked to socialize risk, although its costs will depend on the price at which the Treasury buys and sells the distressed assets, but that's a tough point to understand intuitively.



The failure of the bailout is being interpreted in some quarters as a Jacksonian-style triumph of democracy over the know-better decisions of the technocratic elite -- Main Street's whims over Wall Street's needs. And yet, this isn't really true. When described as a "bailout," the public opposes it. When the principles of the bill are described without using the word "bailout," they support it. So the failure of the bill, was, really, a victory for the inadequate and time-bound vocabulary that our elected leaders use to explain



This was and wasn't a partisan failure. Majority Leader Hoyer and Finance Committee chairman Frank, and Minority Leader Boehner were statesmanlike before the vote. Speaker Pelosi gave a partisan speech at the wrong time; it's indeed possible that it cost her 15 votes. Still, if those Republicans had been of stronger backbones and more nimble minds -- and more mature than Pelosi, who, let's call it, gave a relatively tame, generic partisan speech -- the bill would have passed. Those Republicans were looking for an excuse, and Pelosi gave it to them. It shouldn't matter what Pelosi says; the future of the Republican was at stake. (Newt on Air Force One, anyone?) Pelosi's not responsible for how House Republicans vote.



Neither presidential candidate took a firm position, although one of the candidates riskily suspended his campaign and intervened, without intervening. That intervention failed; he is now blaming his opponent and Nancy Pelosi via a spokesman and bemoaning the gridlock in Washington with his own lips.


Neither candidate really explained the trade-offs to the American people. There was something pernicious, in a way, in both candidates' failure to answer Jim Lehrer's simple question: what will the trade-offs be in January? What, of all the things you've promised, will you not be able to accomplish?

As president, both candidates will rely on the power of the bully pulplit to rally the country, and yet neither candidate has distinguished themselves during the worst financial crisis in the country's recent history.

BTW: A helluva week for Sarah Palin to debate, huh?


http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/09/a_failure_to_communicate.php

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 05:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
Is that perhaps why McCain had to fly back to Washington then?

There was a press release where he (apparently prematurely) took credit for the Bill's passage.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 05:40 pm
@ebrown p,
I thought Monica took care of that stuff.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 06:56 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

That depends how you look at it Foxy. Not everybody who is proud of their work seeks public recognition.


I've never seen a piece of good legislation that was popular that didn't have the author bragging about it to the press and/or a dozen or more others scrambling to get credit for signing on as cosponsors. So why don't we have even a clue who wrote or introduced or cosponsored the bill that got voted down today?
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 02:54 am
@Foxfyre,
http://www.opencongress.org/bill/110-h3997/show

okie
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 09:29 am
@Debra Law,
All I had to do is see Charles Rangel's name on it, and my first gut reaction would be vote against it before even reading it.
 

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