Oneness vs. Trinity

@Foxfyre,

Pentecost Island was discovered by European explorers on the day of Pentecost, 22 May 1768, by Louis Antoine de Bougainville. It was also sighted by Captain James Cook, during his voyage through the New Hebrides (now Vanuatu) in 1774. It was influenced by various successive Christian missionaries but traditional customs there remain strong.

Trinity Island was named by Otto Nordenskiöld, leader of the Swedish Antarctic Expedition (1901-1904) in commemoration of Edward Bransfield's "Trinity Land" of 1820

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@Derevon,

To me, that is one very positive proof that Jesus is God. I am a very firm believer that Jesus is God. And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Tim 3:16

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@tweetyfaye,

I do agree that Jesus is God, tweetyfaye. But, do you think Jesus is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

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@Arella Mae,

Arella, I'm not sure why my entire post did not come through. I will repost that with my entire post. For right now, to answer your question, my answer is yes. I don't think I could believe Jesus is God without believing He is also the Father and Holy Spirit.

I will now get on with the other partial post.

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@tweetyfaye,

I'm not sure why my entire post didn't post; there was a lot to it. I will try to write the post as it was.

To me, that is one very positive proof that Jesus is God. I am a very firm believer that Jesus is God.

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Tim 3:16

Jesus announced His coming in this fashion and is great proof of his Godship:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6.

And, He told us about that the Bible is written of Him:
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Hebrews 10:7.
and
7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. Psalm 40:7-8

Blessings

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@tweetyfaye,

Hebrews 10:7 proves that Jesus came to serve his father.

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@neologist,

Heya Neo,

I know you and I differ on a lot of our beliefs but I don't buy this Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit either. Scripture says these three are one. I do not know how God does that. Three persons? Three manifestations? I don't know. This is one of those things that I take at face value. But, I do find too many scriptures pointing to the fact that Jesus is not the Father.

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

Heya Neo,

I know you and I differ on a lot of our beliefs but I don't buy this Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit either. Scripture says these three are one. I do not know how God does that. Three persons? Three manifestations? I don't know. This is one of those things that I take at face value. But, I do find too many scriptures pointing to the fact that Jesus is not the Father.

I've always looked at it that Jesus is the incarnation of the Christ, the human who walked on Earth, became discouraged, tired, weary, who bled when he was cut, who needed food, water, and loving companionship as much as any other human. As human he was subject to all human frailties, temptations, suffering, and death and yes, he depended on God, the Father, as much as any human.

The Christ however, the 'soul' of Jesus, was with God and was God from the beginning as is the Holy Spirit. And that is how Jesus could state that he and the Father were one. If that was not so, then Jesus' life, death, and resurrection is a sham, meaningless, and without validity. His death did not satisfy the requirements of the Law and we have no assurance that this life is not all that there is.

Jesus said that he and the Father were one. Did he mean 'in spirit' or 'in essence' or 'in fact'? If the Holy Spirit is not God, then how do we explain its demonstrated powers?

Three separate entities? I suspect not but will wait for verification one way or another on that until it is all made clear. As Paul said, we now see through a glass darkly. I've always taken that teaching to mean that if any of us think we have God all figured out, we are only fooling ourselves, and I suspect we don't have the Trinity figured out either.

Won't it be fun when we can self grade our papers though and know what we are unable to know now?

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@Foxfyre,

You seem to believe pretty much the way I do about it Foxfyre. I get laughed at a lot because I say I don't know how God does the "these three are one". I'm like, okay, so laugh at me for trusting God! Laughing

I'm like you, I suspect so many things we think we really know the answer to, we don't. I don't believe anyone has 100% of the 100% truth about all of this.

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Proverbs chapter 8 gives a little insight as to Jesus' creation, saying he was produced at the 'beginning' (vs. 22) This would seem to indicate that God became creator at the time he created his first born. This establishes a sort of oneness in that Jesus' creation defines Jehovah as "He who causes to become". It does not, however, assign equal identity. When Jesus came to earth, he came to do his father's will which, in a large part, was to disprove Satan's allegation that Jehovah's sentient creation would serve him only out of selfishness. (See Job 2:4)

The story of Abraham and Isaac prefigured the pain God suffered at seeing his son executed as a blasphemer and traitor. That Jesus suffered this torture willingly is an example of his perfect obedience to and love for his father. (Hebrews 5:8)

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@neologist,

Very astute observations Neo, but while the passage certainly has a messianic flavor, can you say with certainty that this is not the explanation of that of God that is with us rather than a separate creation? The writers of the Old Testament struggled mightily to explain verbally what was discerned spiritually for so often we don't have sufficient words to explain or describe what our spiritual selves know.

So if you fast forward to John 1:1-3 (NIV):
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing was made that has been made. . . . .

and then v14:
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." Is God the creator of Christ (your interpretation of Proverbs) with Christ creating everything else (John 1:1) or is God the creator of all?

Is God one entity who made himself flesh, or two or more entities from the beginning? The first theory feels the most right to me. The second also works for many I know. Frankly I don't think God cares all that much how we perceive that so long as we love Him with all our heart, mind, and soul.

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

You seem to believe pretty much the way I do about it Foxfyre. I get laughed at a lot because I say I don't know how God does the "these three are one". I'm like, okay, so laugh at me for trusting God!

I'm like you, I suspect so many things we think we really know the answer to, we don't. I don't believe anyone has 100% of the 100% truth about all of this.

Yes Arella, I've been studying and writing and teaching this stuff most of my adult life, and the more I think I know, the more I know I don't know. It is a fascinating subject to me nevertheless and I love to discuss it.

The one thing I know for certain, however, is that we humans do not have the ability to comprehend all there is to know about God, and only the most arrogant among us would presume to explain exactly what God is or is not. I guess I figure if any of us were smart enough to be able to know everything there is to know about God, he wouldn't be much of a God.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre, good reply to Neo's post. Jesus was not a created being. I do know from the JW's I have spoken with, they believe He was. I find no scripture that says He was created. I think saying He was created demeans His divinity.

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@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

Foxfyre, good reply to Neo's post. Jesus was not a created being. I do know from the JW's I have spoken with, they believe He was. I find no scripture that says He was created. I think saying He was created demeans His divinity.

You might have missed this one, AM

(Colossians 1:15) "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

This might help to define their relationship:

(1 Corinthians 8:6) . . .there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

The word 'beginning', when appied to intelligent creation, applies to Jesus. So it would be correct to say that Jesus and his father were together from the beginning.

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@Foxfyre,

Foxfyre wrote:

. . .
So if you fast forward to John 1:1-3 (NIV):
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made and without him nothing was made that has been made. . . . ."

. . . Is God the creator of Christ (your interpretation of Proverbs) with Christ creating everything else (John 1:1) or is God the creator of all?

Is God one entity who made himself flesh, or two or more entities from the beginning? The first theory feels the most right to me. The second also works for many I know. Frankly I don't think God cares all that much how we perceive that so long as we love Him with all our heart, mind, and soul.

John 1:1 is not written the same in all translations. Many write it that the word was "a god" or that the word was "divine". I'm no Greek scholar, I'm just referring to the research.

The idea that Jesus and God are one and the same cheapens the value of the ransom.

Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac prefigures the pain God must have felt at seeing his son tortured and executed as a blasphemer and traitor.

The willingness of Jesus to endure torture and death gives the final answer to Satan's challenge against Job " . . .Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul. " (Job 2:4) Notice that Satan applies his allegations to all.

Jesus reiterated this Luke 22:31, warning his disciples that "Satan has demanded to have YOU men to sift YOU as wheat. . ."

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@neologist,

Why would you say Jesus being God would cheapen the ransom? In my opinion, it makes the sacrifice all the more valuable. Only God can satisfy the justice of God.

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@Arella Mae,

Only those of us who have been created can provide an answer to Satan's challenge.

think back to the time of Abraham. Do you not think that he would have more happily offered himself up as a sacrifice than his son? Any father would have. That is why the sacrifice of Jesus was so poignant to his father.

Additionally, the sacrifice underscores the great love Jesus has for his father and for us.

Any angel could have and would have gladly done the same. All that was necessary for the ransom was for a perfect human to substitute for Adam.

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@neologist,

Actually, no angel could have been the sacrifice Neo. They aren't human, remember?

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@Arella Mae,

Jesus was not human before he became flesh.

Had God deemed it appropriate, any angel could have undergone the same transformation to humanity that Jesus did. As a perfect human, the angel could have lived a perfect life and submitted to death as a substitute for Adam.

Could have

I have no doubt that any of the faithful angels would have volunteered.

Would have

However, none could have supplied the quintessential answer to Satan's allegation as did Jesus.

And the entire intelligent universe would forever be wondering why God's highest creation, his firstborn, had not been the seed to bruise Satan's head.

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In the mystery of god he gave all authority and power into the hands of Yeshua, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself. Just as God who cannot be contained.......
Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain thee
2 Chronicles 6:18

Yeshua was the firstborn and it was the plan from the beginning, and since Yeshua knows the mind and will of God he also knew and agreed to be sacrificed for mankind to have eternal life.

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Oneness vs. Trinity

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