Oneness vs. Trinity

@theMadOne,

WOW! you hit me with that one out of nowhere.. I have never ever ever ever heard of anyone believing or saying that Moses was God or a god. I believe this is totally taking this verse out of Context. God was simply saying that as Moses was the spokesman of God to Pharoah, it is as though Moses has brought these things upon Egypt in Phaoroahs mind. It was just a symbolic relationship. No where did Moses become God nor was he God nor did he claim to be God. As for the Greek not having an "a" before the "WORD" in John 1:1. This is not something that can be added at the "whim of the translator" Greek is a very very complex language. No credible Greek Scholar would ever add, delete or change their translation of the text to fit their beliefs. Translators should not ever corrupt the text to fit their beliefs. The whole purpose of John 1 was to define who was the "logos" not to who God was. This defines the "logos" (WORD) as being the abloulte essence of Deity. The 'en' in this verse declares the pre-existent state of the "Word" as a distinct and different person from GOD, but yet declares that the WORD was absolutely GOD. The 'pros" or "with" God phrase absolutely means to be "in the presence" of or "face to face". The phrase clearly declares the correct translation is the one that has always existed not the one by the NWT which perverts the Words to fit their belief.
" In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was GOD.
The false translation of "a god" leaves a theological quandry. If God declares that there is no other God besides Him and Jesus is "a god" then Jesus is a false God.

You also argue apples to oranges when trying to compare the Greek to the Hebrew..

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

OM,
We do not ignore the concept of "oneness" in the universe as you describe it. We simply vehemently reject it. This concept is in direct contradiction of the Bible and what it teaches. Let me explain.
We believe that God is a supreme being and is the creator of all things. We believe that the only way we can know about this God is through His decision to reveal Himself to us. We believe that God has revealed Himself to us through His inspiration of the Bible. God has no beginning and no end. The oneness concept contradicts what God has revealed to us about Himself. We are not all God, The trees and grass and the birds and animals are not God. To believe this "oneness" concept one must accept that all living things are one, thus that the individual differences are eliminated. No one individual living thing is greater than another and therefore all are equal. We know this is not true, and to accept it as true would make eating vegetables vegicide. Basically all herbivores and carnivores would be violating this oneness principle and not bowing to the oneness of all things. There is just so much more wrong with this concept I dont think I can address it all.

Let's just stick with what the Bible teaches us. It teaches:
There is a Supreme Eternal Creator
Humans are the only living form created in the image of that creator.
Humans were given dominion over all of the creation.
God is a being who stands in judgement of His creation.
We as part of His creations are accountable to Him.
All we can know about God is what he chooses to reveal of Himself to us.
God has revealed Himself to us as Holy and Perfect.
We as His creation have separated ourselved from Him though disobedience.
WE can be reconciled to our Creator through only One Way.
We must confess our sin and accept the Sacrifice of Gods Son (God Himself) as a propitiation of our sin.
We must turn back to Him and allow Him to be the Lord and Focus of our life.

So this is why we reject the concept of the oneness of the universe.

0 Replies

Please forgive me for being absent for awhile. My computer went absolutely haywire on me and I think I have finally gotten it to where I can post again. I downloaded Internet Explorer 8 and my computer went nuts! I had to reinstall Windows XP and replace quite a few drivers to get it fixed.

I just finished reading everyone's posts and am so pleased at the discussion. Let me explain the reason I brought this question up.

I visit a Yahoo Christian Chat Room and there are a few factions that regularly visit the room. Trinitarians, Oneness, Non-Believers, etc.

I am completely perplexed at the Oneness group. They are extremely adamant in their belief that Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and Jesus is the Holy Ghost. The most perplexing thing is they are some of the meanest, nastiest, gossiping, backbiting, slandering, etc., group of people I have ever come across! If you are not a Oneness, to them, you are damned to hell, in false doctrine, and numerous other derogatory things.

From what I have learned the Oneness Doctrine only appeared around 100 years ago. It includes all of the spiritual gifts, and it seems it is a must to speak in tongues in order to be saved. I was curious as to how widespread this particular doctrine is and was wondering how many of you had heard of it.

As for myself, what I believe is this....there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. Now, whether that means one entity or one in purpose I don't know. I believe what the scripture says, that somehow, some way these three are one. I don't understand everything there is to know about God, especially as to how some things are done, like three being one. When I don't understand God's ways or reasoning, I trust in His wisdom.

Foxfyre I really enjoy reading your posts!

5 Replies

@Arella Mae,

Thank you Arella. And welcome back. Most of us go nuts ourselves when our computer goes on the fritz, so I'm glad in your case it was just the computer that went nuts. Smile

For me I used to want everything in my faith compartmentalized, clarified, nailed down, etc. But as I have grown older and perhaps more introspective--I would like to think more open to the teaching of the Holy Spirit--I have become less certain of the minutiae of religion but quite certain of the reality of it. After a long spiritual journey in which I actively attempted to reject Christianity in search of some higher truth, I came to believe that all religions have pieces of the truth and we should not despise that. I also came to my own sense of truth that I could neither explain away nor deny, and I confess that I remain Christian with deep certainty of a relationship with a real person that we call the Christ and for me, the Trinity is part of that reality and experience.

But other than that certainty that He is real and He lives, and I have life because of Him, and I have purpose, and those who open themselves to Him will be changed forever, I have also come to a conviction that if we allow God to be God, it is not up to us to define Him. I mean He wouldn't be much of a God if the likes of me was able to figure Him out would He?

So for that reason, I can accept Texas' faith as truth for him, and David's faith as truth for him, and Intrepid's faith as truth for him, and your faith as truth for you, and my faith as truth for me, and for me, I don't think it's terribly important to God that we all agree on every point.

But for those mean, nasty, back biting types that you describe, I think it is not the Christ I know that drives and motivates them no matter what they call themselves. And that is unfortunate.

0 Replies

@Arella Mae,

I believe that the concept of Oneness is older than 100 years.
I think its 1000s of years old, in some Eastern religions.

Some people who have returned from death in hospitals
have attested that thay found All to be One -- that as thay saw
physicians and nurses franticly trying to rescue them,
thay perceived that the life in them, in the flowers in the room,
in the shoemaker across the street and the dog barking down the block
were all sharing the same life; i.e., the diversity of life is an illusion -- an adventure in consciousness

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Could you provide some actual references to these events? Some people?

1 Reply

@Intrepid,

Intrepid wrote:

Could you provide some actual references to these events? Some people?

I coud if I were a great deal less lazy than I am,
to dig up several years worth of reading and ferret out the applicable quotes.
I don 't need to convince anyone of anything.
We are only discussing here.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Thank you for your reply. I will, therefore, consider your proposition on this particular item as hearsay only.

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

Please forgive me for being absent for awhile. My computer went absolutely haywire on me and I think I have finally gotten it to where I can post again. I downloaded Internet Explorer 8 and my computer went nuts! I had to reinstall Windows XP and replace quite a few drivers to get it fixed.

Hi Arella May. Glad you got your system back up.

Quote:

I just finished reading everyone's posts and am so pleased at the discussion. Let me explain the reason I brought this question up

I visit a Yahoo Christian Chat Room and there are a few factions that regularly visit the room. Trinitarians, Oneness, Non-Believers, etc.

I am completely perplexed at the Oneness group. They are extremely adamant in their belief that Jesus is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and Jesus is the Holy Ghost. The most perplexing thing is they are some of the meanest, nastiest, gossiping, backbiting, slandering, etc., group of people I have ever come across! If you are not a Oneness, to them, you are damned to hell, in false doctrine, and numerous other derogatory things.

You will find people like this all over. I don't think any of us are able to prove one way or the other views on oneness or trinity in absolute terms. It is unfortunate that you have run into the nasties. Whatever happened to tolerance? They, apparently do have have it.

Quote:

From what I have learned the Oneness Doctrine only appeared around 100 years ago. It includes all of the spiritual gifts, and it seems it is a must to speak in tongues in order to be saved. I was curious as to how widespread this particular doctrine is and was wondering how many of you had heard of it.

I am not sure where you got the 100 years from. The term trinity was actually coined by Theophile of Antioch in the second century. He died about 186 AD. The Council of Nicaea (325) asserted that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of the same substance.

Quote:

As for myself, what I believe is this....there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. Now, whether that means one entity or one in purpose I don't know. I believe what the scripture says, that somehow, some way these three are one. I don't understand everything there is to know about God, especially as to how some things are done, like three being one. When I don't understand God's ways or reasoning, I trust in His wisdom.

The Father is associated with the creation.

The son is associated with redemption. It was not the Father, or the Holy Spirit who took on human form, suffered and endured the cross.

The Holy Spirit is associated with sanctification or the new creation because it was not the Father or the Son, but the Holy Spirit who was poured out.

The works of the Trinity cannot be exclusively associated with only one of the divine persons. It is the triune God who is equally active and present.

Does it really matter what the perception of individuals is? Our curiosity will be satisfied on the day that the Son comes as promised in scripture.

Quote:

Foxfyre I really enjoy reading your posts!

Me too

1 Reply

@Intrepid,

Intrepid wrote:

Thank you for your reply.
I will, therefore, consider your proposition on this particular item as hearsay only.

That sounds like a good idea; harmless.

0 Replies

However, I have had a few out-of-body experiences myself -- just deadless.

0 Replies

@Intrepid,

Intrepid wrote:

Quote:

Our curiosity will be satisfied on the day
that the Son comes as promised in scripture.

or when your human body wears out

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

As for myself, what I believe is this....there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

Arella, I'm still curious to learn how this matters to you. Suppose you found out it was actually just one -- in what important way would that change your worldview? Or suppose you found out it was actually three -- in what important way would that change your worldview? What makes this oneness vs. trinity question important to you?

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Quote:
Our curiosity will be satisfied on the day
that the Son comes as promised in scripture.

or when your human body wears out

Two different topics, David

1 Reply

@Intrepid,

Intrepid wrote:

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Intrepid wrote:
Quote:
Our curiosity will be satisfied on the day
that the Son comes as promised in scripture.

or when your human body wears out

Two different topics, David

How is that Two different topics ?

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Hi Thomas,

I have to tell you, that is quite a though provoking question for me. Whether God is as the "oneness" group says, Jesus is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or God is as some believe, three persons in one godhead, or three manifestations of one God really doesn't matter to me.

What does matter is the behavior of, and let me clarify that I am talking about a very specific group of individuals. I am so puzzled as to why they would think that God would actually condone their behavior. I am talking about some extreme behavior here! Another thing I noticed about this particular group is, if they come into the chat room individually, they act pretty human. But, let one or more of their group enter the room and they become downright evil. I know evil sounds pretty harsh but some of the things they do are flat out evil. They make up lies as sick as saying one girl is dying of aids and they laugh about it.

I don't believe for one second that this particular group of people are truly Christian. Their behavior makes that abundantly clear. But how in the world do people get to this point? I am nowhere near perfect and would never claim to be but for the life of me I cannot see that I could ever justify the behavior they display by using Jesus' name.

I think, sometimes to my own detriment, I try a bit too hard to find the good in people. I try to understand the reason they are the way they are, which I don't think is a bad thing. Maybe it's important to me because I feel so clueless as to how anyone can act like that and claim Christ as their Savior.

I really do appreciate everyone posting and the posts are so helpful to me. I have been praying for this group of people constantly and I bounce back and forth from being angry about the way they portray Christ to feeling sorry for them.

1 Reply

@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae wrote:

Hi Thomas,

I have to tell you, that is quite a though provoking question for me. Whether God is as the "oneness" group says, Jesus is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost or God is as some believe, three persons in one godhead, or three manifestations of one God really doesn't matter to me.

What does matter is the behavior of, and let me clarify that I am talking about a very specific group of individuals. I am so puzzled as to why they would think that God would actually condone their behavior. I am talking about some extreme behavior here! Another thing I noticed about this particular group is, if they come into the chat room individually, they act pretty human. But, let one or more of their group enter the room and they become downright evil. I know evil sounds pretty harsh but some of the things they do are flat out evil. They make up lies as sick as saying one girl is dying of aids and they laugh about it.

I don't believe for one second that this particular group of people are truly Christian. Their behavior makes that abundantly clear. But how in the world do people get to this point? I am nowhere near perfect and would never claim to be but for the life of me I cannot see that I could ever justify the behavior they display by using Jesus' name.

I think, sometimes to my own detriment, I try a bit too hard to find the good in people. I try to understand the reason they are the way they are, which I don't think is a bad thing. Maybe it's important to me because I feel so clueless as to how anyone can act like that and claim Christ as their Savior.

I really do appreciate everyone posting and the posts are so helpful to me. I have been praying for this group of people constantly and I bounce back and forth from being angry about the way they portray Christ to feeling sorry for them.

What u have described sounds like fear-based behavior
among people of my point of vu, to wit:
that Oneness is All that there IS
and that the diversity of life is an illusion.

I have noticed that when one 's core values r perceived
to have been threatened, the holder of those core values
sometimes lashes out, emotionally,
as distinct from the result of rational analysis.

David

0 Replies

@Arella Mae,

Arella Mae,
I too agree the discussion is quite fun. The Oneness groups you are speaking of I am quite familiar with. My entire Mothers side of extended family is all Oneness. For the most part they are all part of the largest Oneness organization in the US. The United Pentecostal Church International. Many of them are preachers and practically all are very active in their faith and practice the "holiness" standard. I grew up til I was about 7 in a UPC church and their doctrine is brainwashed into them. I was condemned to hell by my family members because I went to movies and watched TV. Though for the most part we do not discuss doctrine today. Some of them seem to have accepted me as a Christian. While others just don't speak of it. The UPCI has its roots in the Azusa Street revival at the turn of the century. Its quite interesting that to my knowledge the People at Azusa St. were trinitarians. So the Spirit was poured out on them PRIOR to having been baptized in "Jesus Name". In fact the Oneness pentecostals were originally part of what is now the Assemblies of God and they were disfellowshipped around 1916 from the Assemblies for the heresy of the Oneness doctrine. As far as I can tell the UPCI doctrine as it stands today with the "3 part" salvation of "repentence, baptism in Jesus name only and Speaking in tongues" has absolutely no historical record before the early 1900's.
However their core doctrine of God in one Person with different "modes" or manifestations goes back to the 2nd century and was promoted by a man called Sabellius. His doctrine is called Sabellianism and was refuted by the church fathers of the 2nd century and he was excommunicated as a heretic. Now the Oneness will tell you that Sabellius was excommunicated or even killed by the Roman Catholic church. This is false. The Christian Church at that time though is called Catholic was not Roman Catholic. The 5 bishops of the Christian Church at that time were over the churches together and it was not until the end of the 6th century when Gregory the Great became the head of the Roman Catholic Church and the first recognized Pope by non Roman Catholic Historians. Tertullian was a contemporary of Sabellius and vehmently opposed Sabellianism also called "modalism" or "Patripassianism". So this heresy has been around for a very long time. However I find no real history of it past the 3rd century until more recently. This disturbs me because if it is true that their doctrine is truth then How did it disappear for nearly 2000 years? Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. It seems to me that if their Doctrine is one of a "Restorationist" Gospel then the gates of hell did prevail, and all were lost between the 3rd and 20th centuries. There are so many issues with the Oneness doctrine that my head spins. I can live with the idea that someone cannot comprehend the Trinity. But I have real issues with the Doctrine of Baptismal Regeneration, and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as conditions of Salvation, rather than results of salvation. The doctrine of Baptism for the remission of sins to me falls apart not only exegetically in the Greek but also in practice in the New Testament. If ones sins are not remitted until after they are baptized then how does one explain Acts 10;43-48 where Cornelius' house was baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues BEFORE they were baptized. How can the Holy spirit indwell an unclean vessel? Also once one is filled with the Holy Spirit how is it that they need to baptized for the remission of sins? It seems to me to be oneness you must believe:
1) That Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are the same Person.
2) That Jesus' blood sacrifice on the cross WAS NOT enough to pay the price for your sins. Faith is not enough for salvation.
3) That only through baptism in Jesus name are your sins remitted.
4) Until you are baptized in the Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues you are not saved.
It seems to me you must flatly ignore numerous other Biblical passages that clearly teach that faith alone is required for salvation.

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID,
It is two different topics because you are talking about oneness in the universe. This discussion is about The Biblical Christian God and whether he is ONE in Person or Three in Person. It has nothing to do with the trancendental oneness of the universe. As in my previous reply to you. Christians reject this idea of oneness. This discussion focuses on the Person and Nature of the one True Personal Being of God. The Judeo-Christian God. Not any other god or gods or universal conciousnesses. I hope that makes sense.

0 Replies

@TexazEric,

Somewhere I missed this "Oneness" movement or perhaps some years ago it was called something else? I have encountered certain generic Pentecostal groups who are pretty fundamentalist and judgmental about who manifests their salvation (i.e. speaking in tongues) and who does not and if you don't your salvation is somehow suspect. Fortunately all pentecostal groups are not like that, however. Whatever one thinks about the charismatic movement that became so active in the 70's, it definitely did manifest a lot of joy and who among us would deny Christians joy?

My family includes one small branch in the old fundamentalist Church of Christ that accuses other professed Christians, not of that particular denomination, of tearing pages out of their Bibles and following false prophets. And yes, of course unless they mended their ways they were headed for hell. (We have always joked that the blocked off areas in heaven will be for those who believe they are the only ones who will be there.) The sad thing about this phenomenon, however, is how little joy such people get out of their faith. They close themselves off from the world, even from members of their own family, and they seem to be bitter, angry, and judgmental in hostile ways. But as Arella said, the only power we have over that is to pray for them. Just as all 'pentecostals' aren't of the authoritarian judgmental types, neither are all members of the Church of Christ the angry, bitter types.

TE, you seem to have a good grounding in Church history and theology. Are you seminary trained or self taught?

As for who goes to heaven, I think that is God's department, but I am no longer convinced that there is any set rule or process by which one comes to know Jesus as Lord and Savior. I am quite convinced from personal experience and observation and the testimony of others that it is very true that God indeed works in mysterious ways. And again, I don't think he is anywhere nearly as interested in our theology as he is in our relationship with Him.

1 Reply

Oneness vs. Trinity

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know