Oneness vs. Trinity

I am amazed that you got this from foxfyre's post. What you have written does not remotely resemble what she wrote or the meaning of her words.

Apparently, you make the words of a Christian mean what you want them to. The same as your interpretation of bible text.

Arella, with respect the issue of the trinity is not about what God is able to do, but what he actually is

Derevon, you have to be careful not to rely on one scripture when endeavouring to establisb a doctrine. You have quoted john 20:27 & 28...'My Lord and my God. However if you look 3 chapters earlier in John 17 1-5 where it says: "These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, 'Father......this means life eternal, that they know thee the only true God and jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent'. So you see here that Jesus refers to the Father as the only true God and to himself separately. This means we have to now look at your interpretion of John 20: 27 & 28 differently

Thanks Intrepid but you, as a Christian, probably also appreciate how difficult it is for the non-believer to believe. Indeed, without having the experience, it would be unbelievable to us too. So I don't fault those who disbelieve. I do fault their lack of intellectual curiosity--how could any intelligent person not wonder how so many other apparently intelligent, well educated, well rounded people are convinced of the reality of God and the Resurrection? Especially those of us who really tried really hard not to be believers. And I wonder why the idea of religious faith, especially Christian faith, seems to be so threatening to some who are not believers.

As for the Trinity, as I said before, I really don't care exactly how it works because I know it does. But I am curious, which is why it is on my list. (I have a special request in that when I go, I get to take my list of unanswerable questions with me. )

All things will become clear when the time is right.

Quote --"All things will become clear when the time is right."
Especially that when your dead your dead, and you wasted all that time and money on a ancient myth.

Neither is the word "Oneness".

What money? What time? What myth?

Neo,
You have a thoroughly flawed translation of the Bible. The NWT adds the article "a" in front of God. There is absolutely no Greek Scholar with any credibility that would do this. This was done by the WatchTower society to try and change the Bible to fit their beliefs. There is not one credible Greek scholar in the WTS that they have been able to name. I cannot accept your translation as an accurate translation. If you wish to debate I will accept the KJV, NKJV, NIV as appropriate traslations. Thomas was not making an exclamation, but a statement that Jesus was God, a fact that Jesus had been telling him all along. The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is an eternal being. Hebrews 1:8 states the Father God calling the Son "God". The Father says "Thy throne O God is forever and ever", Once again your WTS has changed the wording into a false traslation. This was not so many years ago, they only changed it to have something to argue their point with because true greek scholarship disavows such a translation.
The very fact that Jesus was crucified on a CROSS was because he dared to make himself equal with GOD. The Jews knew exactly what he was saying. John 5:18 (even the NWT) does not dispute this one.
You say that Jesus was called the Mighty God! This is true he is the Mighty God and since there can only be one true God Jesus is either GOD or he is a False god. He cannot be some sort of mini-god and be a true God. For there is only one True God and ALL OTHERS ARE FALSE GODS!. Jesus clearly stated his Pre-existence in eternity in John 8:58. (though once again the NWT distorts the word of the Lord) The Septuagint was the primary Greek Translation of the scriptures during Jesus' time. In 8:58 Jesus says " ...before Abraham was, I AM" He used the words "ego eimi" which were the exact same word that were used by God to Moses at the burning bush. By using the exact same phrase from the Greek , Jesus was saying that he was "I AM" JESUS IS GOD. How do we know this is what Jesus meant, because immediately they took up stones to kill him. The Jews were ready to kill Him for declaring Himself GOD.
Your arguments that Jesus never declared himself God is FALSE. It is a lie of the enemy and his WTS to deceive millions.
Jesus declared Himself God numerous times, The distinction that Jesus made between Himself and the Father is that He was revealing GOD to the world. That God was Triune, GOD Is in three persons. The Jehovah's witnesses and Oneness believers make a fatal flaw in their Bible interpretation. They try to define the New Testament in Light of the Old Testament. Jesus was the New Revelation. He was the Completion of Gods plan of revelation of Himself and salvation to the world. The proper study of the Bible MUST use the New Testament to define the Old Testament. This is a must!
In order to believe what you Declare to be true you must do the following:
1) Believe that the TRUE Gospel was lost to mankind until Charles Taze Russell, rediscovered it 1879 and started the Watchtower Society. (now considered by the JW's as God's prophet on earth). This makes Jesus a LIAR because he said the very Gates of Hell Could NOT prevail against His Church!. Mt 16:18
2) You must deny the deity of Christ. In doing so you deny that it was Gods own blood that was shed for your sin. By doing this you cannot be saved. The Deity of Christ is Key to salvation and has been since The Day Christ was Born.
3) You must throw out all translations of the Bible by the Greatest and most proclaimed Greek Scholars throughout history for the supposed "scholarship" of a few unnamed individuals who refuse to support their Greek Scholarship credentials.
4) You must believe that the Watchtower Society is God's Prophet and is therefore speaking for God on earth.( JW history proves that they have given numerous false prophecies thereby proving they are not the One True Gods Prophet on earth).

My Friend I appeal to you in the Strongest of terms. You are being led astray by a vice of Satan. The WTS is not of God but of Satan and they do not reveal truth to you. God has revealed himself in Jesus as the Saviour of the World. I beg of you to toss the false bible and false teachings of this society and study a scholarly Translation of the Bible (KJV, NKJV, NIV, ESV, NASB) These are the best there are and are agreed on by TRUE Scholars of the original Languages. I trust you desire to know truth. I have done my homework and I KNOW without a jot or tittle of doubt that Jesus IS GOD and he died for your sins. I know how you will be shunned by the JWs. they will treat you despicably. (not very christian) But your eternal soul is at stake. There IS a heaven to Gain and a Hell to Shun. Just read and pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you in truth. (if truth is what you desire).

Love , In then name of my Lord and God Jesus Christ.

Neo " the word trinity is not in the Bible"
Neither are the words Ominicient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent but all are characteristics of God that are clearly taught in the Bible.

Quote ---What money? What time? What myth? Unquote.----- can understand why you ask that, unfortunately you have no way of understanding the answer to those questions unless you free yourself from your biblical prison, there is a real world outside you know

Sorry, but you are the one who brought up the money, time, and myth issues as accusations and have now added to that "Biblical prison". Unless you can articulate how your point of view is valid, it is difficult to see you as anything other than an Atheist fanatic.

TexazEric up there for instance put a lot of meat into his post. Many Christians here would agree with him on some, a lot, or all of it, but at least he left little doubt about what he believes.

Give us something to understand here.

Exactly. Tenderfoot does, indeed, seem to be a tenderfoot. Does appear to be rather fanatical and emphatic about atheist beliefs with no knowledge of Christian beliefs of which he/she has no tolererance.

tenderfoot my friend,

I agree with only a part of your quote. It is true " All things will become clear". The question is when is that time? Will it be before you die or after? If after then it is too late. For "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord". (doesn't really matter if you believe it now or not).

Now on to your own quote... "Especially that when your dead your dead, and you wasted all that time and money on a ancient myth. "
Scientific studies prove that religious people are happier and healthier in many ways than those who are not. So how is it wasting time when you are doing what makes you happy? How is it that only atheists are allowed to be "happy" in their purposeless lives? Religious people have a purpose a design in their belief system that makes them happy and FREE.

If I have money is it not my choice what I do with the money I have? If I have $100 and choose to give a portion or all of it to a cause that makes me happy truly waste of $$. I'm sorry but that argument is completely relative to what each individual places as a value of money.

As for your ancient myth statement, (sigh) this has been going on for 2,000 years and still no one has been able to disprove the existence of Christ. the overwhelming evidence and consensus is He did exist and its up to each individual to believe whether or not they choose to believe the Biblical account of Him. Don't you believe that every person has a right to believe anything they wish? Would you follow suit of people like Lenin, Stalin, Mao and others who believed it was okay to terminate people who did not think like them?

I agree with the other posters. Give us some "meat" to understand where you are coming from.

Remember there are nearly 7 billion people on earth and basically 7 billion different points of view. Though I would argue that there is only One Truth.

Well said TexazEric, and I would add that while I agree there is one absolute truth, I daresay no human has fully grasped it. Again, now we see through a glass darkly, but in time it will be made clear.

I also agree that among the more than 6 billion people on the planet, no two will be 100% identical in their point of view. In a way, you might say that each of us is a demonination of one, and if we would ever learn to accept people on those terms, there would be a lot less hostility and angst in the world. I suspect we will each be surprised when we meet our Maker and find out how wrong we were about this or that. And I suspect God cares a lot less about our theology of the Trinity or anything else than he cares about the content of our hearts.

I agree that none of us is given full knowledge of God. I am glad you understood my point about all of us having a different world view. I'm not sure I fully understand what you are saying about "accepting" those views. I would say there is a difference between "Accepting" someone elses point of view and recognizing or even tolerating it. I fully agree everyone has a right to believe what they like, but I will not "Accept" their view as truth if it is in opposition to my belief of what the truth is. I agree that whether or not we understand the doctrine of the trinity is not God's greatest concern. As long as you believe that Jesus Christ is the Almighty God and he came in the flesh as a sacrifice for your sins, and you put your full faith in his shed blood. You accept him as LORD of your life then I believe you are saved. But those here that say that Christ was not GOD and those that declare that faith in Christ is not enough for salvation and you must be baptized in the name of "Jesus Only" and must speak in tongues for salvation are not teaching the gospel.

We aren't too far apart I imagine. My belief is the same as yours that Jesus Christ was/is God. I can accept as Christian, however, those who see Jesus as the Son of God, one substance/family but separate beings. My own faith didn't settle there but I can't believe that God would care much about the distinction.

When I was studying Church history in earnest, I was horrified that our Church fathers, one generation removed from Jesus, would expend so much time, energy, angst, and judgmentalism on the specific doctrine of the Trinity. I think God must have been shaking his head that people could so miss the Christian miracle that they could behave that way over minutiae.

It was less contentous but nevertheless created additional schisms in the Church re the substance of the sacrament of the Eucharist/Lord's Supper/Communion--I'm surprised we didn't have Church wars over what to call it. Did Jesus even want us to have such a sacrament that in itself became something that was almost worshipped? Or did He intend for us to have Him in mind every time we gathered together to break bread? Does God care? That's another one on my list to ask.

As for salvation do you go with the Biblical explanation of predestination as adopted by the Lutherans and Calvinists in which none of us can be saved other than by grace and therefore it is all decided and nothing we can say or do or confess will change whether or not we are saved? Or do you go with the Biblical theory that all are saved period by the sacrifice and death of Jesus? Or do you go with the Biblical theory that all who confess Jesus as Lord are saved? Or any one of the other theories out there? There is one absolute truth there too, but I suspect those of us who have experienced the living Lord know it however that happened. Does God care how it happens? That's another one on my list to ask.

Perhaps we both allow some flexibility and let God work it out lest we be guily of the Biblical admonition not to judge in those areas that are God's prerogatives alone. I mean we don't want to be like the Atheists are.

They condemn our translating the Word was
"a god", while they do that with the reference
to Moses "being" God!

There ARE no 'a's nor caps in biblical Hebrew and
Greek- so they HAVE to be inseted at the discretion of the Translator, who is USUALLY influenced by what HE believes!

Both Jesus AND Moses were "God" or "a god".
(Ex 7:1, John 1:1)
Both mean exactly the same thing, which is shown
by the added refernce to Christ being called
"the WORD"!

Exodus 7:1 (Darby Translation)
1-And Jehovah said to Moses, See, I have
made thee God to Pharaoh; and Aaron
thy brother shall be thy prophet. - Darby

Well if you want to be technical, the ancient Hebrew written language was not much different from the original Phoenician alphabet from which it emerged. There were no capital letters, no vowels, no punctuation, no separation of words, and no paragraphs. All such were added in subsequent translations into other languages.

Most of the New Testament, however, was written in classical Greek which left much less ambiguity to the literal translation, and we know enough of the ancient languages and culture to discern at least some of the intent. The Hebrew word for 'god' called YHWH was not attributed to Moses, nor was the Greek 'logos' translated 'word' in English anything close to the same context. I don't know where you're getting your information, but your interpretation is a really wide (and erroneous) stretch.

Have u ignored the broader and more encompassing concept of Oneness
that there is One Person alive in the universe
and that the universe is made out of consciousness ?