Oneness vs. Trinity

@bulmabriefs144,

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That's a contradiction. As new information arrived, you adjusted to it. This in fact implies you have been wrong, and several times in fact. Denial is not only a river in Egypt though.

As new information was received, the belief I held, evolved to a higher level.

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That's beautiful. And did it not ever occur to you that God created all people, not just those who agree with you?

Yes, God created all people and gave to all people His WORD. But many of those people, chose to twist and distort "HIS' words, like yourself who claim that the man Jesus was born a female.

Quote:

(He gets swallowed by a large fish)

Jonah was indeed inside the big fish for three days and three nights, and yet, so many of the people that God created, believe that God is a liar, and that it is impossible for a man to remain alive for that length of time within a big Fish.

So, I decided to check for myself if this was at all possible, and I asked, Just how big to whales get? And I discovered that in 1933 a sulfur bottom whale was caught off the coast of cape cod it was 100 ft long and had a mouth over 10 foot wide. A man who was unfortunate enough to be swallowed could take refuge in any one of the whales stomach chambers, (but would undoubtedly die because of the digestive acids,) but they could possibly survive in the large cranial cavities (extensions of the nasal sinus) which measure 7 feet high, 7ft wide and 14 ft long. More than big enough for a man to hide safely inside.

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(So, what does Job do? He sulks. After all, he is a Jew and cannot stand the idea of God saving his enemies)

Just another of your anti-semitic remarks. You do realise that Jesus was a Jew don't you?

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This is God's plan. If you have not understood this, you have been wrong.

It is God's plan to establish the Messiah that he has 'CHOSEN' to save his people, from the surrounding nations, who would drive his children into the sea, if he does not intervene, but he will.

Numbers 24: 17; “The message of Balaam son of Beor, The words of the man who can see clearly, Who can hear what God is saying And receive the knowledge that comes from the Most High. With staring eyes I see in a trance A vision from Almighty God.

I look into the future, And I see the nation of Israel. A king, like a bright star, will arise in that nation. Like a comet he will come from Israel. He will strike the leaders of Moab And beat down all the people of Seth.

18He will conquer his enemies in Edom And make their land his property, While Israel continues victorious. 19The nation of Israel will trample them down And wipe out the last survivors.”

Isaiah 63: 1-6; “Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?”
“It is the LORD, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory.”

Why is his clothing so red, like that of someone who tramples grapes to make wine?”

The LORD answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes, and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies. I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them. I poured out their lifeblood on the ground.”

Zechariah reveals, that the Lord, who filled the man Jesus with his spirit, is coming to fight for his people and establish his chosen Messiah on the throne in Jerusalem, from where he shall judge the whole world with Justice for the thousand years Sabbath day, the day of the lord, and the Jews will look at him (The Lord) and see his earthly host body (JESUS) in who he revealed himself to the world, and they will weep for him (Jesus) as one weeps for an only begotten son.

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord) has fixed a day in which He shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a 'MAN' He has 'CHOSEN'. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that 'MAN' from death.

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@bulmabriefs144,

Quote:

That's a contradiction. As new information arrived, you adjusted to it. This in fact implies you have been wrong, and several times in fact. Denial is not only a river in Egypt though.

Nope! No contradiction there kiddo. As new information was gathered, the belief I had evolved to a higher state.

Quote:

That's beautiful. And did it not ever occur to you that God created all people, not just those who agree with you?

God certainly did create 'ALL' people, and gave to 'ALL' people his Holy WORDS. But so many, many people like yourself, who claim that the man Jesus was born a female, have chosen to reject the Lord.

Quote:

(He gets swallowed by a large fish)

Jonah was indeed swallowed by a large fish, but so many of those people who God created, believe that this is a total fabrication and that God's is a liar.

For this reason, I decided to check for myself if the words of the Lord were correct, and I asked the question, Just how big do these whales get?

And I discovered that in 1933 a sulfur bottom whale was caught off the coast of cape cod it was 100 ft long and had a mouth over 10 foot wide. A man who was unfortunate enough to be swallowed could take refuge in any one of the whale’s stomach chambers, (Although undoubtedly the digestive acids would kill him) or the large cranial cavities (extensions of the nasal sinus) which measure 7 feet high, 7ft wide and 14 ft long. More than big enough for a man to hide safely inside.

Quote:

(So, what does Job do? He sulks. After all, he is a Jew and cannot stand the idea of God saving his enemies)

Job? Not Jonah? Ah well it doesn’t matter, you don’t know what you’re talking about half the time anyway, but there ya go, Just another of your anti-Semitic remarks, You do realise that Jesus was a Jew don't you?

Quote:

This is God's plan. If you have not understood this, you have been wrong.

God's plan is to establish his chosen Messiah, Jesus, on the throne in Jerusalem, from where he shall Judge the whole world with Justice for the thousand years Sabbath. But first of all he has to flog the hell out of the surrounding nations that would attempt to drive his chosen children into the sea.

Numbers 24: 16; The message of Balaam son of Beor, The words of the man who can see clearly, Who can hear what God is saying And receive the knowledge that comes from the Most High.

With staring eyes, I see in a trance A vision from Almighty God. I look into the future, And I see the nation of Israel. A king, like a bright star, will arise in that nation. Like a comet he will come from Israel. He will strike the leaders of Moab and beat down all the people of Seth. He will conquer his enemies in Edom and make their land his property. While Israel continues victorious. The nation of Israel will trample them down and wipe out the last survivors.”

Isaiah 63: 1-6; “Who is this coming from the city of Bozrah in Edom? Who is this so splendidly dressed in red, marching along in power and strength?”
“It is the LORD, powerful to save, coming to announce his victory.”
“Why is his clothing so red, like that of someone who tramples grapes to make wine?”

The LORD answers, “I have trampled the nations like grapes, and no one came to help me. I trampled them in my anger, and their blood has stained all my clothing. I decided that the time to save my people had come; it was time to punish their enemies. I was amazed when I looked and saw that there was no one to help me. But my anger made me strong, and I won the victory myself. In my anger I trampled whole nations and shattered them. I poured out their lifeblood on the ground.”

Zechariah, reveals that the Lord, who revealed himself to the world through his earthly ‘IMAGE’ the man Jesus, who he had filled with his spirit, will go out to fight for his people as he had fought in times past. He will throw his enemies into total confusion and cause them to turn their weapons of destruction on their own allies, and they will suffer a terrible disease, their soft tissues, such as the eyes and tongues will dissolve in their sockets, and their flesh will slide from their bones while still standing on their feet, and they will look on him and see the one they had pieced and will weep for him as one weeps for an only son.

Then all the survivors in the nations, will go up to Jerusalem each year to pay tribute to the King Jesus, who will judge the whole world with Justice for the great Sabbath ‘DAY’ of one thousand years.

Acts 17: 31; For He (The Lord) has fixed a day in which he shall judge the whole world with justice by means of a ‘MAN’ that He has ‘CHOSEN’. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising that ‘MAN’ from death.

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@bulmabriefs144,

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Unlike you, God seems to grant me grace in spite of my shitty messed up life, and in spite of my garbled beliefs.

Glad to see you admit that you live a shitty messed up life, and your beliefs are garbled nonsense, which means that you accept yourself for who you are and are on the path to salvation.

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Yes, my religious beliefs are syncretic, but I do read the Bible as written.

Your religious beliefs are certainly syncretic, a hog-pog mixed up mess of bits and pieces of beliefs that are not supported by the words of the Lord.

And NO! you do not read the bible as written, please reveal where it is written or even suggested that the man Jesus was born as a female.

Quote:

It's easy, every now and then, you can admit when you're wrong.

And I will, when ever, and if ever that happens.

Nighty night mate/

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

Of course I admit I have a shitty messed up life. I literally feel like I am suffocating in my house, which they keep too hot in the winter. I just realized I'm miserable, but haven't anywhere I'd like to go. Literally everywhere else got caught up in this COVID hysteria. There is nowhere in this world I consider safe or happy. So I suppose it's as good as anywhere to be smothered to death at home.

If you think always right, you're wrong. I've been wrong all the time. You seem to think it's okay to deny you've ever been wrong.

If I can go into an average bookstore, grab a Bible, and leaf to some random page about Jesus 9/10 times. Btw there are over 450 Bibles out there, and I have read from many of them, I have NEVER run across this pet theory of yours. There's a simple explanation and it doesn't involve "conspiracy" or "deceivers". It's that you are the one being deceived. When every version I've come across, Catholic/Protestant/Greek/Aramaic/ancient/modern paraphrase all says "You are my son, with whom I am well pleased" and you listen to your gurus and they all tell you the same thing. That's great and that's lovely.

Read the NLT comment again. "Some manuscripts say, Today you have become my Son." But do any of them push this Heli theory? No, you'll find it quite non-Biblical.

There are many ways to study the Bible one of them is to cross-reference the Bible you've got in hand with other Bibles. It doesn't seem like you're doing this. Another way is to go to the earliest available source. But it seems like you've rejected everything as having too much Catholic influence. So we have some bizarre cut-off version of the Bible. A third way is to find the text, and translate it. I haven't the ability to do this, but the Greek text as it is translated online lacks this word entirely. Now I don't know half enough Greek or Aramaic to dispute this, but I trust, I am not paranoid enough to believe that some random Yahoo would Google at me (you see what I did there) and deliberately feed me false gospel.
Yes, I am syncretic but I follow official consensus of Bible text. I have not found even on one text which says "today" for Luke 3:22. I mentioned that the word heresy means quite literally "To pick and choose." You've got a copy of the "Bible" which tells you (my Kindle literally stopped typing and I had to recset, if that isn't a perverse miracle I dunno what is) something that no other Bible will, that the virgin birth is a lie. But the issues don't end there.

Basically you've bought the myth that Christians altered their text, and you are now reading a very altered text that denies many of the basic tenets of Christian faith. Is it necessary to believe Mary was a virgin? No, but you are having to resort to an overwrought and convoluted explanation of how Jesus is the Son of God. Seriously, go to a book store, ask them to get you an Aramaic-English Bible, Greek-English Bible, a study bible or concordance, and pick up about three others. You won't find this in any of them. In fact, I encourage you to do this now. Because whoever wrote this copy you are reading has an axe to grind. There are heavy alterations and omissions.

2 Replies

@bulmabriefs144,

https://ratiochristi.co.za/jesus-as-an-adopted-son-of-god-the-heresy-of-adoptionism/

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Alister McGrath explains the nature of heresy as follows:

“One of the more persistent themes in early Christian accounts of heresy is that it smuggles rival accounts of reality into the household of faith. It is a Trojan horse, a means of establishing (whether by accident or design) an alternative belief system within its host. Heresy appears to be Christian, yet it is actually an enemy of faith that sows the seed of faith’s destruction.”[1]

Heresies are thus aimed at denying or distorting the heart of the Christian faith.[2] These heresies, or as McGrath calls them, “rival accounts to reality,” especially revolved around the idea of redefining the person and the work of Jesus Christ. The problem with these rival accounts to reality, as it pertains to Jesus, however, is that “the subtle changing of who Jesus is here and there, all make Jesus less remarkable, less magnificent, and less of a Savior. In fact, it makes him no Savior at all.”[3] The reason for this is because many heresies regarding Jesus distort the unity of His full divine nature with His full human nature, in one way or another. For Jesus to be our true Mediator and Saviour, He “had to be both God and man,” for as “God He could reach to God, and as man he could reach to man.”[4]

I quote this passage, because even though they also do not include the words "today" it is clear that the adoptionists consider the baptism as the starting point of Jesus's beginning as Son of God. I also quote it to explain from the onset the distinct dangers of embracing Biblical ideas without checking them against other Bibles.

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To unpack the Christological heresy of Adoptionism, I deem it wise to make some preliminary remarks about the Adoptionists’ view of God. Given their 2nd century Jewish background, the Adoptionists were Unitarians. This meant that “there was one sovereign God,” presumably God the Father, “who had no internal relationships with other co-equal persons.”[7] Unitarians would typically overemphasise monotheism at the cost of the doctrine of the Trinity[8], and hence, the full deity of the person of Jesus Christ. These “strident monotheists” found it difficult to accept Jesus as being fully divine. To their strict monotheistic Jewish minds, “if Jesus is God, then there must be two Gods, and that was unacceptable.”[9]

The consequence of denying the doctrine of the Trinity, however, is that there is no eternally begotten Son of God. If God is only one essence and one person, then God the Father did not eternally communicate the “one, simple, undivided divine essence to the Son.”[10] Furthermore, if there is no eternally begotten Son of God, then Jesus Christ cannot be the incarnation of an eternally begotten Son of God in our human condition. When Adoptionists therefore looked at the person of Jesus, they did not see the ineffable unity of divinity and humanity made possible through the incarnation. No, they only saw “a good man, an incredible teacher, and a wonderful life model who was uniquely empowered by God to do remarkable things.”[11] Although Jesus did not lose His remarkability in Adoptionism, He did however end up losing His deity.[12]

The heresy of Adoptionism can consequently be defined as a reduction of the person of Jesus to a human figure who had acquired divine sonship by merit. His sonship is not due to a unique and eternal filial relationship to God the Father. The divine sonship of Jesus rather had a historical beginning at some point during His terrestrial life.[13] In other words, there was a time during Jesus’ life on earth that He was not the Son of God. He only attained or received His status as the Son of God “because God adopted Him to be such.”[14] The divine sonship of Jesus Christ is, in the words of Michael Bird, “not ontological but honorific.”[15] It is not by His very nature that Jesus is God’s Son, but by adoption. This adoption as God’s Son did not make Him divine, but only spiritually superior to other humans. His humanity was thus emphasised while His deity was “diminished or denied.”[16]

It must also be added at this point that upon His adoption, when Jesus became God’s Son, He also received power from God to do miraculous things.[17] The historical beginning point which marks Jesus’ adoption and empowerment is usually, but not always[18], held to be the baptism of Jesus as recorded in all four gospels.[19] God’s words “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased”[20] therefore marked the beginning of Jesus’ divine sonship. As God’s Spirit descended onto Jesus in the form of a dove, He was empowered by God to start His miraculous ministry. Here, God’s Spirit is not necessarily a divine person according to the Adoptionists, but only “a manifestation of the power of God.”[21]

See the problem of heresy is that it deaden the soul to new ideas. You say that tou have grown and evolved, but it looks like you became cut off. You basically cut off any gospel that doesn't fit your theological framework, and as a result you yourself have become cut off.

This is why it is not just good but essential for you to cross-reference. Of course, I suspect that you are devoted to your belief, just as devoted I am to my family. But both of us are pretty cut off from the outside world.

1 Reply

@bulmabriefs144,

I have found this Robert Mock MD.

It wasn't under Robert Mock MD. This leads me to a real medical doctor. Instead I typed in "The Ancestors of Jesus in First and Second Century Judea BCE"

And I found about five hits.
https://sites.google.com/site/antiblasphemycentral/Home/biblesearch-blasphemous-fake
https://sites.google.com/site/antiblasphemycentral/Home/the-blasphemous-biblesearchers-the-patriarch-of-jerusalem-jacob-ben-matthan-2
http://www.biblesearchers.com/yahshua/davidian/dynasty6B.shtml
It also does not appear to be a published book. It's an online article blurb that I refuse to read.
Really, the only first two actually mention that article.

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@bulmabriefs144,

Quote:

If you think always right, you're wrong. I've been wrong all the time. You seem to think it's okay to deny you've ever been wrong.

Why would I deny that I have ever been wrong, when I have always been right according to the data that I had accumulated at any given point in time?

But I'm glad to see that you admit that which we have always known, and that is, that you have never been correct and have been wrong "ALL THE TIME"

Quote:

It's that you are the one being deceived. When every version I've come across, Catholic/Protestant/Greek/Aramaic/ancient/modern paraphrase all says "You are my son, with whom I am well pleased"

Then you should have read the following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries who wrote, “This day I have begotten thee,” which is vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine. All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased.” Whereas the original variant was, “THOU ART MY SON THIS DAY I H AVE BEGOTTEN THEE".

I don't give a rats ass about the disciples of the Roman church, who have been deceived. like yourself, into believing her changed and corrupted version of Luke 3: 22.

BTW, you submit so many posts with so many words, to say nothing that can be supported by the Holy Scriptures.

As you have admitted, you have been wrong 'ALL THE TIME' which includes here and now.

Nighty night AMUS.
.

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

Quote:

Why would I deny that I have ever been wrong, when I have always been right according to the data that I had accumulated at any given point in time?

Seriously, are trolling me? That's too absurd.

If you are always right, you are either refusing to change in the face of new arguments (in which case you are not right, just stubborn) or you have adjusted to the new data (in which case the old data was wrong).

You must be trolling me, right? I'm being punk'd here?

1 Reply

@bulmabriefs144,

Quote:

Seriously, are trolling me? That's too absurd.

What is absurd, is the thought that I would bother trolling you. If I were trolling you, I would hit every thread in which you post your biblically ignorant statements, which I do not.

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If you are always right, you are either refusing to change in the face of new arguments (in which case you are not right, just stubborn)

If I were to change in the face of any argument put forward by you, I would be an idiot, not stubborn, and when I say that I am always right, I am referring to my religious belief, not to the life that I've lived, although I would not change one dot of that life, because it has made me 'WHO I AM' today, and I am content with 'WHO I AM".

As I have explained before; "You will not find me today where I was yesterday, and you will not find me tomorrow where I am today. I am like a mountain river, with many, many tributaries running into me as I flow toward the great ocean, where I merge and become one with the unfathomable.

I am right today as I stand on one rung of the ladder of my evolution to everlasting life, tomorrow I will be on a higher rung of that same ladder, not on a different ladder, as you do with your amalgamation of the many different ladders of the many different religious bodies that have muddled your brain.

Quote:

You must be trolling me, right? I'm being punk'd here?

No, you're not being trolled, and no one is playing practical jokes on you, because "YOU ARE THE JOKE".

If you don't want me responding to your rubbish, then don't post ****.

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

So you think you're God?

(1) You're always right
(2) Talking about who I Am.
(3) Comparing yourself to a mountain river
(Btw, I haven't any such change or adaptability.You remain committed to the same nonsense as yesterday, and the day before)

Good to know. Maybe when you come down from that epic-level narcissism, you remember these two passages, "All have sinned, all have fallen short" and "If I say that I have no sin, I deceive myself."

You have gotten swept up in this adoptionism sect, and forgotten that humility is a rule in Christianity. As my father said in a sermon, humility is not about false modesty nor really about self-abuse, but it is about recognizing one is human. Vulnerable. That being in pain or wrong or suffering is not necessarily a bad thing. That always being on the winning side is not necessarily a good thing, as it distorts our perception. Maybe you think there is no room for that in this world, that one always must be perfect as God is perfect (bad translation btw). Or maybe like the therapists say, narcissism is really a way of masking poor self-esteem. But you see, nobody here minds if you're vulnerable. Well, some asshats might make fun of you, but I've been known to give people **** for messing with others. What I don't want to see you do is walk around wearing a masque all your life. We get enough of that **** on a daily basis from the mask Nazis and Karens. God doesn't want our burnt offerings, he wants our broken hearts, our true selves.

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@TA
@bulma

Thank you both for your answers. I feel like I know you both a little better now. And I can relate to both.

So I guess I owe you an answer as to how I would react to Christ telling me I had it 'wrong' when we finally meet. You probably already know where I am currently and as TA said, I feel very certain about it and believe it is 'right' but only because I know I have been honest in seeking the answer thus far.
But the same is true for other things I’ve believed, and been terribly confused about. I say 'confused' because at the time, they were the 'right' answer for me given my past life experiences and understanding at the time. I could come to no other honest answer for myself given those things. I’ve never 'belonged' to any formal religion so accepting a dogma or foundational belief was never an option.

On top of that there was one of my 'road to Damascus' experiences. I had another equally certain belief that was sanctioned by society, organized religion and God (or so I thought), so I had no reason to suspect it was 'wrong' until the day I realized that following it had led me to a dead end in my spiritual life.

I was angry with God because I thought I was following his way prepared for me and yet I ended up despairing of life itself. It was at the end of a weeks long 'knife fight with God' that I shouted something at God that unlocked the door to my own misunderstanding.

It was much as TA described. In a fraction of a second countless pieces of my life came together. I suddenly understood why I had been spiritually stifled for almost sixty years. My perspective of everything in my past, present and future changed in an instant; I literally became a different person. It was not some magical transformation where God rearranged my thinking, but all the actual preparations that God had laid for me to reach this understanding for myself were suddenly obvious to me. It was so humbling that I could only fall down before him when I saw the full picture of how he had lovingly led me to this place in my life, regardless of how painful it had been getting there. For the first time I felt empathy for God for having to endure it with me.

I’m certain my reaction when/if he tells me I had it 'wrong' about the relationship between God and Christ will be the same. I will fall at his feet in gratitude for the understanding I’m sure will be there.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

Quote:

I was angry with God because I thought I was following his way prepared for me and yet I ended up despairing of life itself. It was at the end of a weeks long 'knife fight with God' that I shouted something at God that unlocked the door to my own misunderstanding.

Well spoken LF, your experience has left me speechless.

One day, if ever I can put my life changing experience into words???
But until then please allow me to call you "Brother"?

2 Replies

@The Anointed,

No you may not call him "brother".

You strike me as one of those people who can turn the charm on and off.
But when asked to admit your own faults, you feign ignorance.

I know that sort of thing. They're the same sorts of people who beat up women, tell them they were just drunk or mad that time, and that they've "changed". They don't change. Cuz they don't ever admit fault. This is what it takes to change, to actually be sorry for what you've done. To not have a hardened heart. Some of them keep beating until they wind up killing them.

I certainly hope this isn't the case but some of your comments lately have been red flags (narcissism/sociopathy). So let's ask you to share abit.

When have you wrestled with God?

1 Reply

@The Anointed,

Quote:

Well spoken LF, your experience has left me speechless.

One day, if ever I can put my life changing experience into words???
But until then please allow me to call you "Brother"?

Thank you TA. It had the same effect on me at the time, I suspect yours was that way too. There really are no adequate words. But if and when you want to try, I’d be happy to listen.

And of course, I would be glad to call you the same.

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@bulmabriefs144,

Quote:

No you may not call him "brother".

Bulma! remember how you correctly (or not) react whenever Frank told you what you could do, say, think, know…

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

I have not ever said that I am not a hypocrite. Uhhhh probably not.

Hardly ever?

Sure, you can if you wanna. But I think it's awfully easy for him to offer when just before he is talking about how he never ever has been wrong.

Not just Frank either. I am on record talking about Jonah and how he wants those he doesn't like to be condemned.

2 Replies

@bulmabriefs144,

We all talk smack at times.
A time for all things.
But not all of them : )

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

That's true.

Ummm also, your momma wears combat boots or something.

1 Reply

@bulmabriefs144,

My mom was/is Rosie the Riveter. She may have worn combat boots.

1 Reply

@Leadfoot,

I knew it!

0 Replies

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