TruthMatters
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2021 12:07 pm
@Arella Mae,
They are both clergybabble....
0 Replies
 
TruthMatters
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2021 12:10 pm
@Arella Mae,
You mean THIS~
John 17:11- And now I am no more in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name, which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
0 Replies
 
TruthMatters
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2021 12:11 pm
@Derevon,
You mean Thomas forgot the Holy Ghost-God?
0 Replies
 
BillRM
 
  2  
Reply Fri 4 Jun, 2021 02:28 pm
@Arella Mae,
LOL if I remember correctly in the Bible there is a statement that not even Jesus know the time of the second coming. So if it was one and the same 3 in 1 person it seem hard and pointless to keep secrets from one part of yourself.

In any case the whole thing is nonsense on it face.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Reply Sat 5 Jun, 2021 05:31 am
@BillRM,
Quote:
So if it was one and the same 3 in 1 person it seem hard and pointless to keep secrets from one part of yourself.

In any case the whole thing is nonsense on it face.

Good starting point, a hard logical contradiction noticed between the book and religious dogma.

But then Whoops, there goes baby with the bath water
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2021 07:03 am
@Arella Mae,
You fell for confusing double negatives.

"...enough to disprove that Jesus is not One with the Father" means enough to prove Jesus is One with the Father.
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 12 Jun, 2021 07:16 am
The official doctrine of the church is of the oneness of the Trinity, rendering this vs a heresy.

There is One God (as the Jews believe). However, even the Jews are on record saying Jacob wrestled with a man, not an angel. And that he later claims "you have fought with God." And they have a Spirit of the Lord, which leaves Saul and he becomes possessed by an evil spirit.

The official doctrine:
Father is God
Son is God
Spirit is God
Father is not Son
Son is not Spirit
Spirit is not Father

They are three distinct parts of God, not three gods. The Holy Spirit is part of our souls somehow (I always wind up comparing it to Shinto ideas), the Father created all things, and the Son personally interacts with humanity.
If the Father tried to interact with humans, our heads would explode seeing him. If the Holy Spirit tried to interact with humans, we'd not know the difference from a regular conversation. Likewise for creating or souls. Each of these aspects of God is best at their job, but God is One.
0 Replies
 
theMadOne
 
  -2  
Reply Sat 13 Nov, 2021 02:25 pm
@Arella Mae,
They both have NOTHING to do with the Bible!
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2021 02:52 pm
@theMadOne,
What the Bible has to say about the Trinity


Matthew 28:19 ESV / 199 helpful votes
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 28:19 ESV / 199 helpful votes

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
John 10:30 ESV / 122 helpful votes

I and the Father are one.”
John 1:1 ESV / 120 helpful votes

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 14:26 ESV / 96 helpful votes

But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.
1 John 5:7
ESV / 94 helpful votes

26 “But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
John 15:26 ESV / 91 helpful votes

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me.
John 1:14 ESV / 87 helpful votes

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Genesis 1:26 ESV / 81 helpful votes

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
1 Peter 1:2 ESV / 72 helpful votes

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.
1 Corinthians 8:6 ESV / 66 helpful votes

Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
2 Corinthians 13:14 ESV / 63 helpful votes

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Matthew 28:18-20 ESV / 60 helpful votes

And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
John 14:10 ESV / 56 helpful votes

Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.
Matthew 3:16-17 ESV / 54 helpful votes

And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”
Isaiah 48:16 ESV / 54 helpful votes

Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.” And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit.
Isaiah 9:6 ESV / 48 helpful votes

For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Acts 5:3-4 ESV / 47 helpful votes

But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Colossians 2:9 ESV / 46 helpful votes

For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
John 14:16 ESV / 39 helpful votes

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Ephesians 4:6 ESV / 37 helpful votes

One God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Romans 8:26-27 ESV / 37 helpful votes

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
John 8:58 ESV / 37 helpful votes

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Revelation 1:8 ESV / 34 helpful votes

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
John 14:16-17 ESV / 33 helpful votes

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Mark 12:29 ESV / 31 helpful votes

Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Deuteronomy 6:4 ESV / 31 helpful votes

“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Hebrews 1:3 ESV / 30 helpful votes

He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
1 Corinthians 12:4-6 ESV / 30 helpful votes

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit; and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone.
Galatians 3:20 ESV / 29 helpful votes

Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.
Isaiah 43:10 ESV / 29 helpful votes

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.
John 1:3 ESV / 28 helpful votes

All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Isaiah 44:6 ESV / 28 helpful votes

Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts: “I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god.
Genesis 1:1 ESV / 28 helpful votes

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
John 14:28 ESV / 24 helpful votes

You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.
Hebrews 9:14 ESV / 22 helpful votes

How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
Ephesians 4:30 ESV / 22 helpful votes

And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Galatians 4:6 ESV / 22 helpful votes

And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!”
Luke 10:22 ESV / 22 helpful votes

All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”
Isaiah 45:22 ESV / 22 helpful votes

“Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other.
2 Peter 1:21 ESV / 21 helpful votes

For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
John 3:16 ESV / 21 helpful votes

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Genesis 11:7 ESV / 21 helpful votes

Come, let us go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another's speech.”
Romans 9:5 ESV / 20 helpful votes

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Matthew 1:23 ESV / 20 helpful votes

“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel” (which means, God with us).
Isaiah 6:8 ESV / 20 helpful votes

And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I said, “Here am I! Send me.”
Genesis 1:2 ESV / 20 helpful votes

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
1 John 5:20 ESV / 19 helpful votes

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.
Titus 3:5 ESV / 19 helpful votes

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Isaiah 42:8 ESV / 19 helpful votes

I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols.
John 20:28 ESV / 18 helpful votes

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”
John 10:30-33 ESV / 18 helpful votes

I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
John 1:18 ESV / 18 helpful votes

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
Genesis 3:22 ESV / 18 helpful votes

Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”
1 John 5:7-8 ESV / 17 helpful votes

For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree.
Hebrews 10:15-18 ESV / 17 helpful votes

And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds,” then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.” Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin.
Colossians 1:16-17 ESV / 17 helpful votes

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
1 Corinthians 12:3 ESV / 17 helpful votes

Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
John 16:7 ESV / 17 helpful votes

Nevertheless, I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you.
John 10:28-30 ESV / 17 helpful votes

I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
Matthew 24:36 ESV / 17 helpful votes

“But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
1 Timothy 2:5 ESV / 16 helpful votes

For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Ephesians 4:4-6 ESV / 16 helpful votes

There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Titus 2:13 ESV / 15 helpful votes

Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
John 14:9 ESV / 15 helpful votes

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
John 4:24 ESV / 15 helpful votes

God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
1 Corinthians 8:4 ESV / 14 helpful votes

Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.”
1 Corinthians 3:16 ESV / 14 helpful votes

Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
Romans 8:9 ESV / 14 helpful votes

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
John 20:17 ESV / 14 helpful votes

Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Isaiah 44:8 ESV / 14 helpful votes

Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any.”
Psalm 2:7 ESV / 14 helpful votes

I will tell of the decree: The Lord said to me, “You are my Son; today I have begotten you.
Hebrews 1:8 ESV / 13 helpful votes

But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
Colossians 1:15 ESV / 13 helpful votes

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Romans 1:7 ESV / 13 helpful votes

To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Acts 13:2 ESV / 13 helpful votes

While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 10:38 ESV / 13 helpful votes

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
John 5:30 ESV / 13 helpful votes

“I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Psalm 104:30 ESV / 13 helpful votes

When you send forth your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.
1 John 4:14 ESV / 12 helpful votes

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
2 Corinthians 4:4 ESV / 12 helpful votes

In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
1 Corinthians 6:11 ESV / 12 helpful votes

And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Romans 8:11 ESV / 12 helpful votes

If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Luke 22:42 ESV / 12 helpful votes

Saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”
Luke 1:35 ESV / 12 helpful votes

And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.
Matthew 1:21 ESV / 12 helpful votes

She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.”
Isaiah 61:1 ESV / 12 helpful votes

The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the Lord has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
Romans 15:30 ESV / 11 helpful votes

I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,
Romans 8:26 ESV / 11 helpful votes

Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.
John 17:20-22 ESV / 11 helpful votes

“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,
John 14:17 ESV / 11 helpful votes

Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
John 5:18 ESV / 11 helpful votes

This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
John 3:6 ESV / 11 helpful votes

That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 1:1-3 ESV / 11 helpful votes

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Isaiah 3:1-26 ESV / 11 helpful votes

For behold, the Lord God of hosts is taking away from Jerusalem and from Judah support and supply, all support of bread, and all support of water; the mighty man and the soldier, the judge and the prophet, the diviner and the elder, the captain of fifty and the man of rank, the counselor and the skillful magician and the expert in charms. And I will make boys their princes, and infants shall rule over them. And the people will oppress one another, every one his fellow and every one his neighbor; the youth will be insolent to the elder, and the despised to the honorable. ...
Colossians 1:16 ESV / 10 helpful votes

For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.
Galatians 1:1 ESV / 10 helpful votes

Paul, an apostle—not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead—
1 Corinthians 2:10-11 ESV / 10 helpful votes

These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
John 10:33 ESV / 10 helpful votes

The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”
Matthew 11:27 ESV / 10 helpful votes

All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Matthew 3:16 ESV / 10 helpful votes
And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
theMadOne
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2021 03:10 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
The standard cut and paste.
Why not take each one at a time?
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2021 03:59 pm
@theMadOne,
You said the Bible didn't mention the Trinity. You were wrong.

Pick anyone of them you'd like. You'd still be as wrong.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2021 04:43 pm
@theMadOne,
Actually that was epic cut and paste.

But he could maybe ummmm explain one or two of those instead of just quoting.
bobsal u1553115
 
  1  
Reply Wed 17 Nov, 2021 05:17 pm
@bulmabriefs144,
Take a dart and toss it. Let's discuss that one.

I was merely refuting the claim the Bible never mentions the Trinity. I still haven't hear an admission that, yes, the Bible mentions the Trinity and aspects of Trinity, many times. In fact - there's a bunch more mentions.

So: Our discussion starts here - The Bible talks quite a bit about the Trinity.

I am willing to discuss any or all of what you call "cut and pastes", but I prefer "the inspired word of G*d."
0 Replies
 
theMadOne
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2021 08:44 am
@bobsal u1553115,
Oh, jusy bwhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahhahaha!

https://themadjw.weebly.com/uploads/1/2/2/2/12223196/almighty_orig.jpg
0 Replies
 
theMadOne
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2021 08:45 am
Or are 'They" equal?
Leadfoot
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2021 11:56 am
@theMadOne,
Didn’t one of them say 'There is none good but God'?

Hard to make a case for absolute equality when one of them ALWAYS defers to Him.
theMadOne
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2021 12:16 pm
@Leadfoot,
Thatsa RIGHT.
Actually, "Oneness" turns God into a God with a split personality disorder LITERALLY!
0 Replies
 
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2021 09:05 am
@Leadfoot,
God can't be much of a God if he is arrogant. Naturally, God defers to Himself.

The Shack has a good picture of what God is like. They accuse this of modalism and inventing a fourth side of the Trinity, but I thought it was a good film.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt55NXLXyao
0 Replies
 
bobsal u1553115
 
  2  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2021 04:14 pm
Hey! You two Bible scholars!! You were wrong!!!!

The Bible speaks about the Trinity 30 - 40 different times specifically.
bulmabriefs144
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 23 Nov, 2021 06:18 pm
@bobsal u1553115,
It never uses the word "Trinity" though. The concept is definitely there though. Neither do real copies of the Bible contain the word "Hell." Hell is from Norse tradition, which confused Helheim ( a Sheol-like shadowland) with the realm of the fire giants.
 

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