Oneness vs. Trinity

Written by: Jimmy Swaggart ......And yet there are three distinct persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The three are SPOKEN of as one in number and yet treated individually in Scripture. There is one God the Father, one Lord Jesus Christ, and one Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 8:6; Ehpesians 4:3-6). Thus there are three separate persons in divine individuality and divine plurality. The Father is called God (I Corinthians 8:6), the Son is called God (Isaiah 9:6-7; Hebrews 1:8; John 1:1-2) and the Holy Spirit is called God (Acts 5:3- 4). Individually, each is called God; collectively, they can be spoken of as one God because of their perfect unity. The word "God" can be used either in the singular or in the plural, like sheep. Everything that could pertain to God collectively could also apply equally to each member of the Godhead as individuals.(END QUOTE)
I'm a oneness Christian! I don't believe that the trinity and oneness debate is a Heaven or hell issue and i also don't believe that being baptized in the name of the Father,Son and Holy Ghost is a Heaven or hell issue. I will say that most trinitarians don't even know that they are trinitarians because they say there is one God but they believe just like Brother Swaggart which is clearly 3 Gods with the same goal or interest in mind.

I have truly enjoyed reading everyones opinion and have definitely learned from some of the views. God Bless!

I did not realize you were oneness but your statement "............most trinitarians don't.............." sure give sit away. No offense meant.

There is plenty of scripture to back up there is God the Father, and God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. It doesn't mean they are three Gods. They function as the godhead, as is in scripture.

Let me ask you this: Jesus prayed to the Father, Father let the disciples be one as you and I are one. Now, was Jesus asking his Father to make the disciples Jesus?

Not to mention that Jesus numerous times states He HAS a father. Not that He is the Father. If he said he has a Father and didn't claim to be that Father, then Jesus lied. We both know Jesus does not lie.

And yes, there is the humanity prays to deity defense of your argument. Strange, but cutting Jesus up into a man sometimes and God sometimes sounds like that's more than one God now doesn't it?

If you will, if you haven't already, do some research you will find that this heresy was thrown out of the church in the first century I believe. And if you will do a bit more research you will see this is a new teaching beginning around 1913.

Whether it is a hell or not issue I do not know. I believe what the scripture says. These three are one....................how God accomplishes that is His business. I believe it because He says it is so.

Me saying that i'm a oneness Christian should have given it away......alot of people believe in the scripture but believing and getting on your face in the Word and asking,knocking and seeking is different .....research both sides OPEN MINDED and PRAY about it and it will be revealed ....i'm not being ugly here but i believe that all you read was " most trinitarians don't" you were offended immediately .....all i was saying is that trinitarians do believe in 3 Gods and my last post on Brother Swaggart proves that point! I have nothing but Love for you and i agree with some of your points but i can't get past that there is only ONE GOD!.........
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.Matthew 1:20....just asking if there are 3 Gods doesn't this make the Holy Ghost the FATHER!
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Isaiah9:6
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.....which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US.

Jesus confirmed that He was not a separate Person, but God manifested in the flesh. Jesus said unto Philip, ".. .He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works...Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME..." John 14:9-11. Jesus simply stated, "I and My Father are ONE ." John 10:30.

I believe that this is here for us to know and not a Mystery it is in THE WORD and it is a Revelation that WE can receive if WE ASK!

Thanks for talking with me on this matter.....
your Brother in Christ,
David

I think you are confused on what the Trinity is. Nowhere has anyone claimed that the Trinity is 3 Gods. Except by you.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit = 1 God

I think you should research Trinity it means 3 and you need to read what Brother Swaggart said I just put it on here a couple of post back.....Pray and ASK for the Revelation.... Meditate on the Scripture Don't follow MAN ASK GOD......I put several scriptures in my last post and there is a bunch more .....ASK GOD to REVEAL it to you through his WORD and NOT WHAT MAN HAS SAID.....Thats all i'm saying .....I was a Trinitarian myself and I asked God if there is something out there that I'm missing or need please Reveal it to me and i started PRAYING,FASTING,SEEKING AND ASKING with an open mind so I could receive!
Here are some of the research item I used ...PLEASE PRAY AND RESEARCH IT WILL BE REVEALED!!!!

No record will you find that the New Testament Church ever believed or taught the doctrine of the Trinity. For the Scriptures prove that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are only manifestations (not three Persons) of the ONE GOD; and God is ONE IN PERSON. In Creation God was manifested as the Father (Invisible Spirit - John 1:18, 4:24); in redemption (for our sins) God was manifested as the Son (Spirit in body - Col. 1: 13-15, 2:9); and in emanation God was and is being manifested as the Holy Ghost (Spirit in believers - Acts 2:4, 17, Rom. 8:9, Eph~ 4:6)

Encyclopedia International, 1975 Edition, Vol.18, p.226 - The doctrine of the "Trinity" did not form part of the apostles' preaching, as this is reported in the New Testament.

New Catholic Encyclopedia, 1967 Edition, Vol.13, p.1021 - The first use of the Latin word "trinitas" (trinity) with reference to God, is found in Tertullian's writings (about 213 A.D.) He was the first to use the term "persons" (plural) in a Trinitarian context.

Encyclopedia Americana, 1957 Edition, Vol.27, p.69 - The word "Trinity" is not in Scripture. The term "persons" (plural) is not applied in Scripture to the Trinity.

World Book Encyclopedia, 1975 Edition, Vol. T, p.363 - Belief in Father, Son and Holy Ghost was first defined by the earliest general council of churches. This was the First Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D.

New International Encyclopedia, Vol.22, p.476 - The Catholic faith is this: We worship one God in Trinity, but there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Ghost. The Glory equal - the Majesty co-eternal. The doctrine is not found in its fully developed form in the Scriptures. Modern theology does not seek to find it in the Old Testament. At the time of the Reformation the Protestant Church took aver the doctrine of the Trinity without serious examination.

Life Magazine, October 30, 1950, Vol.29, No.18, p.51 - The Catholics made this statement concerning their doctrine of the Trinity, to defend the dogma of the assumption of Mary, in an article written by Graham Greene: "Our opponents sometimes claim that no belief should be held dogmatically which is not explicitly stated in Scripture... But the PROTESTANT CHURCHES have themselves accepted such dogmas as THE TRINITY, for which there is NO SUCH PRECISE AUTHORITY in the Gospels"

GOD BLESS,
David

Yes, you are correct in that trinity means three. You may have failed to read where I posted, twice, that water can be water, vapour and ice. That is 3 entities, but they are all water.

You are asking me to put any faith in what Swaggart says? Methinks you are, perhaps, being brainwashed.

It seems that we are both Christians, but miles apart in our beliefs. That is ok. I would never try to sway your beliefs. However, I hope that you do not try to sway others either.

Many of us have been accused, unjustifably, of trying to push religion down the throats of those who do not have a belief in God. I hope that you do not add to this.

I do agree, however, that we should all be able to state our opinion. Whether others choose to accept, disagree or ignore is up to them.

Wishing you a most blessed day.

all i was saying is... if you want to understand why i believe the way i do, so that you understand both sides Research it, if you don't want to understand my beliefs then don't..... it is all about asking GOD! ....NOT MAN!...... BRAINWASHED????????????? I fasted, prayed and sought God on this matter not MAN thats not BRAINWASHED THATS REVELATION!

I'm not asking you to put faith in Brother Swaggart?, he is just giving you the definition of what the trinity is.... thats all!

God Bless,
David

I do apologize for focusing on the "most trinitarians don't". That was based on others' behavior and not yours and was totally wrong of me.

Yes, I know about the Isaiah 9:6 verse also. However, the everlasting Father part is really in question. Abraham is the father of our faith, true? I do not believe it is saying Jesus is the Father, but Jesus is the basis of our faith.

There are just too many scriptures pointing to the fact that somehow, some way, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate (insert whatever word because I don't know the right one) but yet they are one. I believe the three function in unity (one) to make up the godhead, which is the biblical term. I only believe in one God. I have never believed in three Gods. I never even knew anyone thought the trinity meant three Gods until I heard it in a chat room and quite honestly, it floored me.

I haven't the foggiest clue as to how God does these three are one. I honestly don't believe it is something I have to know and understand.

I guess my biggest argument against Jesus being all three is:

1) Jesus would have lied, by omission at least, by saying he has a father and referring to his father over and over again if, in fact, he was the father.

2) God is not the author of confusion. He would not confuse us by referring to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in at least one instance scripture refers to all three being in the same place (i.e., when Jesus was baptized).

3) Jesus was fully God and fully man at the same time. If the "humanity preys to deity" explanation is correct then Jesus wasn't man and God at the same time.

Whether this is a salvation issue or not, I truly do not know. I must say dolphish, you do not seem to have the same temperment as most "oneness" I have encountered. I truly believe this is one issue we won't have the definitive answer to until we are in heaven.

Again, please forgive my focusing on what I did.

I feel like I need to step in here and sure hope I'm not stepping on toes.

dolphfish, every single "oneness" person I have run into says the exact same things that you do. The only thing I haven't seen you post is the "if you do not believe that I am he you will die in your sin". The problem with that is a few short verses above that verse it is clear Jesus is talking about being the messiah and not the father. The very fact that so many oneness will twist this verse to fit Jesus is the Father tells me it's wrong.

Oh yeah, all the oneness I have encountered use the word "revelation" too alot. I've heard many go outside of scripture because they got a "revelation". I'm not saying you do that. I just understand Intrepid's comments.

I listen(open minded) to everything you say about the trinity, this discussion is about Oneness vs Trinity, i'm just telling everyone what was revealed to me after seeking the truth from God (not man) .....all I'm saying is research it for yourself don't just condemn it.....and about the "die in your sin" remark I am not God it is Not my place to put anybody in hell, that is Gods job to JUDGE.....and I understand Intrepid's comments too I never one time condemned or put down anyones beliefs ...I just believe there is ONE GOD and I was just sharing that. and I welcome your beliefs, understand your beliefs and would never take it personal that you share them with me...So by all means please step on my toes and i promise I will receive it, in Jesus name!.... I told you that i was not the typical oneness, I believe in sharing not Judging and I realize that the oneness pentecostal's do judge .....that is why I said that I was a oneness Christian! I do feel that people are getting offended and judging me and if we do that then that makes us no different than the "oneness" persons that you've run into. I've ran into some "oneness" people before too that is why I started seeking Gods heart on this matter cause I wanted to understand WHY they felt like they did.

Oneness penecostals believe if you believe in the trinity you're not saved and if you haven't been baptized in Jesus' name you're not saved and if you haven't spoken in tongues you're not saved ......I DO NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THAT I JUST BELIEVE THERE IS ONE GOD! thats why i'm saying I researched it by fasting and praying to GOD and not asking a oneness pentecostal preacher. I am sorry if I have offended anybody,i'm just sharing my beliefs! I have nothing but Love for each and everyone of you!

God Bless,
David

I hope you do not feel that you are being judged here. That is not the case. Judgement is not the role of a Christian in any case.

When you say


I don't understand how you can call that research. Research means to find all relevent information and to come to a conclusion based on all the facts. Fasting is, perhaps, good for the body but not for research unless you are researching the effects of fasting. Praying to God is always a benefit. It does not, however, come under the heading of research unless you are researching the way that you pray.

I happen to believe that it was with the incarnation, death, and resurrection of the Son of God, and the sending of the Holy Spirit, that God came to be revealed as a triune God.

It is through the Holy Spirit who leads into all truth that we come to know that God is triune. "for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God"

The bible does not specifically contain a dogma of the Trinity, but it it does relate events that clearly refer to the Trinity at work. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit were present at His baptism. Jesus worked in unity with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Gospels tell us that Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and he maintained a constant connection with the Father and acted in His commission. In John 10:30 Jesus said, "I and My Father are one."

This is only one of several such references to a Trinity. Single verses cannot be used to provide a single answer, nor disprove such either.

For those of us who believe in baptism of water by the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit do so in our belief that this is the manifestation of a triune God. It does not make others wrong, it only means that they have a different belief.

WOW!......if you want to hear Gods voice or if you want him to reveal something to you,we as Christians,Fast, Pray and Seek (which is get your face in the Bible)!

You, as a Christian may fast. I do not. Sorry, but I do not know what your response to my post actually means.

Does WOW mean that you like it? Does WOW mean that you disagree with it? Does WOW mean you don't understand it? Again, sorry but I do not quite understand the response.

Okay, this is where I have a problem with some of what you state dolph. God does NOT reveal anything outside of scripture. Scripture is very clear there is Father, Son, and Holy and Spirit and it is very clear there is ONE God. The only thing that isn't perfectly clear is how it is done exactly.

God isn't going to reveal a single thing to ANYONE that cannot be backed up by scripture. We are told to study to show ourselves approved. We are told to be as the Bereans and check everything with scripture. So these NEW (as in 1913) revelations are not from God according to scripture.

A preacher I love to listen to says this: "If you cannot trace the teaching back through 2000 years of church history within the context of the church, IT'S PROBABLY WRONG!

So, this oneness teaching that started around 1913 basically says everyone had it wrong for all the previous years. Do you see this?

I do not wish to argue with you either. I do wish though you would understand I only believe in one God.

One more scripture that would not make sense IF Jesus were the Father. Jesus said: "If you deny me before men, I will deny you before MY FATHER." Not I will deny you (because I am the Father) but I will deny you before MY FATHER."

This is all i'm going to say .......I backed up everything i've said with scripture it is up to US to seek Gods face......Trace back where the "trinity" came from ..it sure won't the Apostles! and if you believe in One God then we believe alot a like but the trinity doctrine believes in 3 persons and that is the issue that i have is there is Not three persons there is only One God manifested ....Three persons means there will be three thrones there is only One God on One Throne!

Psalm 35:13
But as for me, when they were sick, my clothing was sackcloth: I humbled my soul with fasting; and my prayer returned into mine own bosom.
Daniel 9:3
And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes:
Joel 2:12
Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
Matthew 17:20-21
20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

21Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting.

Mark 9:28-30

28And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out?

29And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting

Luke 2:37
And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day.

Thanks for the scriptures. Your point?

Also, please go back and digest my water analogy again.

'I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me'" (John 14:6).

"'I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies'" (John 11:25). "'

I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life'" (John 8:12).

"'I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins'" (John 8:24).

"'He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day'" (John 6:54). "'

I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned'" (John 15:5-6).

"'I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst'" (John 6:35).

"'All may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him'" (John 8:23).

Your water analogy is awesome and you are the FIRST trinitarian I have ever heard use that analogy that is the exact way that oneness people explain it! The only difference between us on the "oneness vs trinity" debate is that trinitarians believe there are three persons and oneness people believe there are One God manifested.

My point on FASTING is exactly what the scripture says......it is a major part in seeking Gods heart just like praising, worshiping, prayer!

Wow! that is some awesome stuff!!!...if you didn't say you were trinitarian i would think you were oneness.....