Obama's electability

Cyclo
Instead of denial and defense take a good look and Obama's background. You know guy who when questioned about his past associations defense has continually been that's not the man I knew.

parados
I suggest you get off your ass,you and and the blowhard cyclo and do a little research on your own. It's all on the web. Which is what I suggested in the first place. Or are you afraid of what you will find.

parados
I suggest you get off your ass,you and and the blowhard cyclo and do a little research on your own. It's all on the web. Which is what I suggested in the first place. Or are you afraid of what you will find.

He will be and should be attack for his policies and platform.

He is a tax raiser, weak on defense, weak on foreign policy, weak on the economy.

He is a great speaker so long as you understand his words are empty.

For some it is a matter of partisanship and for some it is a matter of observation and perception.

Foxfyre wrote:

For some it is a matter of partisanship and for some it is a matter of observation and perception.

For many, yourself included, the partisanship colors the perception. You paint a picture of someone who practically has to be tortured with the comfy chair to begrudgingly admit that he loves this country, when in fact I've heard him say repeatedly that he loves this country, that he owes it a debt of service, etc... and without being forced. Now I don't doubt that this is your perception but I think it is skewed by partisanship and other influences that, thankfully, I don't believe most Americans share.

I think that the issue is a manufactured and false issue. When was the last time that the number, tone, and frequency of professions of love for one's country was even considered in a national election?

Well I have listened to a LOT of Obama speeches, interviews, town hall meetings, and read a lot of stuff, and I'm sorry, but my perception is that he has a hard time saying that he loves this country. Perhaps you could refer me to a few sources in which he volunteers that he loves his country and that would change my perception about that particular issue no matter how partisan or biased I might be.

And also intellectual honesty sometimes requires that we acknowledge that perception is sometimes the source of a bias rather than bias always being the cause of perception.

And I prefer a President who does love his country, sees it as basicly good, and seeks to improve on that. Call me as biased as you want but my bias does make that a personal preference.

Foxfyre wrote:

Well I have listened to a LOT of Obama speeches, interviews, town hall meetings, and read a lot of stuff, and I'm sorry, but my perception is that he has a hard time saying that he loves this country. Perhaps you could refer me to a few sources in which he volunteers that he loves his country and that would change my perception about that particular issue no matter how partisan or biased I might be.

I don't know that it would make any difference to your perception. We're not talking about quantifiable facts, we're talking about your perception. I did a quick google search on "Obama speech love country" and came up with at least three distinct references to I or we loving our country. These were in speeches that he wrote and not from the comfy chair. I'm going to guess that you've already heard these as they were in pretty big speeches and you've been paying attention, so I don't think my posting them will make much of a difference to your perception. I mean, I'm not even quite sure what your perception exactly is -- that he doesn't say he loves his country, or that he doesn't like to say it, or that he says it but not often enough?

Quote:

And also intellectual honesty sometimes requires that we acknowledge that perception is sometimes the source of a bias rather than bias always being the cause of perception.

What I said was that bias colors perception, not causes. I don't discount the possibility that they feed each other.

Quote:

And I prefer a President who does love his country, sees it as basicly good, and seeks to improve on that. Call me as biased as you want but my bias does make that a personal preference.

Sure. So when was the last time that you wondered whether a presidential candidate loved his/her country and was that in any way related to the frequency with which they professed it?

Yes it would help me change my perception if you could post the specific lines where Obama volunteers that he loves his country or he loves America that is not included in a very generic universal "we".

I do remember strongly questioning Kerry's opinion of his country and spoke out strong views concerning that.

The things that Obama says that especially bother me are things like this:

Quote:

These are not words spoken by one who recognizes or appreciates all the efforts that have gone into making America what it is or who has appreciation for what his country is. And yes, I know his 'race' speech and some others could be said to take the opposite view. But I am not convinced that he does not see America as a megalythic failure and himself as the messiah who will save it.

Foxfyre wrote:

Yes it would help me change my perception if you could post the specific lines where Obama volunteers that he loves his country or he loves America that is not included in a very generic universal "we".

Will you then compare those lines to the similar lines of McCain professing his love for this country? I presume you can tick off a few of the numerous instances in which McCain has done the same.

Script for "Love America Enough" (:60-TV)
JOHN MCCAIN: "Since I've been in Washington, I've made a lot of people angry.
"I made defense contractors angry when I blew the whistle on a $30 billion dollar boondoggle and the culprits were sent to jail.
"I upset the special interests and Washington lobbyists when I passed campaign finance reform.
"I made the Pentagon angry when I criticized Rumsfeld's Iraq strategy, and I upset the media when I supported the strategy that's now succeeding.
"I angered the big spenders in Congress when I called for earmark and spending reform. No more $233 million dollar bridges to nowhere or $74 million for peanut storage in a defense spending bill.
"I didn't go to Washington to win the Mr. Congeniality award.
"I went to Washington to serve my country.
"I might not like the business as usual crowd in Washington. But I love America. I love her enough to make some people angry.
"I'm John McCain and I approve this message."
LINK

Yes, I've made a lot of people angry. But I didn't go to Washington to win the Mr. Congeniality award. I went there to serve my country.
I might not like the business as usual crowd in Washington, and they might not like me. But I love America. I love her enough to make some people angry.
I'm going to put the business as usual crowd out of business -- and make them thank me when I do. I won't only restore your trust. I'll make you proud of your government again. I'm going to keep this country safe, prosperous and powerful. So help me God. And I respectfully ask for your vote to help me do it.
LINK

My grandfather was an aviator; my father a submariner. They gave their lives to their country. In Tokyo Harbor, on the day the Japanese surrendered, they were re-united for the last time. My grandfather would die a few days later. His last words to my father were "it's an honor to die for your country and your principles." I have been an imperfect servant of my country for over forty years, and my many mistakes rightly humble me. But I am their son . . . and they taught me to love my country, and that has made all the difference, my friends, all the difference in the world.
LINK

I don't think anyone should be questioning either of the nominees patriotism. They are both good men who believe in this country and what it stands for. They both seem to actually want to change America for the what they consider the better. It's their methods of change that we should be discussing.

Here you go FD.....three quotes I found in about 1 minute of looking.