Obama Pummelled in Debate?

There is no candidate, including Republican candidates, who cannot be swiftboated. The way to beat back lies is with the truth, not with more lies. The way to beat back Rovian politics is not by adopting them. I think that as long as Democrats continue to make choices based on what the Republicans do they are conceding power to the Republicans and won't win another election. The choice of Kerry was just such a response. How many people said we could combat the patriotism questions by nominating a war hero?

The Republicans don't own the game, it's not their field, and they don't get to pick the Democratic candidate. The sickening thing here is that we have a Democratic candidate who is complicit in the swiftboating (Kerryizing, as the article put it) of the other Democratic candidate.

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time will tell...

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

here's a perspective....most here won't like it but it's interesting...

http://www.newsweek.com/id/13256

Oh gosh, the old worn out media canard that Dem men are feminized and weak (while Republican men are masculine and strong) Beyond tiresome.

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Didn't see your latest post, BPB, but looked like I answered it anyway.

Meanwhile I thought this was an interesting... slip, or something, in an article in the Style section of the NYT about Jenna Bush's upcoming wedding in Crawford rather than in the White House:

Quote:

"Why should the Obamas..." Not "the McCains" or "the Clintons"...

I'm telling you, BPB, Republicans know they can't beat Obama.

(Leaving alone for now the "ew" factor in that quote...)

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sozobe wrote:

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
There is mass love of Obama regardless and you know it. No one's picking a fight... I'm just stating a fact. And there is no more mass hating of obama from the clinton camp than vice versa... obama is just passive aggressive about it. I know I overuse that term when speaking of him and his tactics but to my mind there's no better description. I don't hate the guy... I just don't think he's the guy for the job right now.

I'm not saying there isn't mass love of Obama, no. I'm refuting it in the context that you used it, that even when there's this mass love he can't get more than a small lead over McCain. My point was sure there's mass love, but there's mass HATE too. And that hate -- or dislike, or disdain, or concern, or however you want to put it -- is emanating from the Democratic side and grabbing headlines on a daily basis.

Point being -- now is when Obama could be expected to do WORST in head-to-head matchups with McCain. If he's doing OK now, he's gonna do much better after becoming the nominee.

I couldn't agree less. And one or two point difference is not doing okay.... it's a statistical tie. How can you refute what you see with your own eyes ? No one's using a nasty context here. I'm stating a fact. Obama has a love affair going with a HUGE amount of the American public and yet can't pull away from a bush clone. that's not meaness or snarkiness or attacks... it's a fact.

Flip the coin. All the people who support Hillary and yes, there are many.... and SHE can't pull ahead of him either.

It's a sad view of what we've allowed ourselves to become IMO.

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FreeDuck wrote:

I think that as long as Democrats continue to make choices based on what the Republicans do they are conceding power to the Republicans and won't win another election.

Excellent, excellent point.

The rest of the post too.

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BPB how was McCain doing against Obama and Clinton before he was the presumptive nominee? The head to heads right now don't mean much.

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useless question... how was bush doing against gore before he moved into the White House?

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

I couldn't agree less. And one or two point difference is not doing okay.... it's a statistical tie. How can you refute what you see with your own eyes ? No one's using a nasty context here. I'm stating a fact. Obama has a love affair going with a HUGE amount of the American public and yet can't pull away from a bush clone. that's not meaness or snarkiness or attacks... it's a fact.

"Nasty context?" Really not the point. (Never said it was nasty.)

You're not addressing that Obama has to fight off Hillary on one side and McCain from the other, and nobody's paying any attention to McCain (positive or negative). You think Obama's lead will grow or shrink if he becomes the nominee?

Quote:

Flip the coin. All the people who support Hillary and yes, there are many.... and SHE can't pull ahead of him either.

Shows you're missing the point. Main thing I'm saying is that Hillary attacking Obama and Obama parrying her blows doesn't help EITHER of them. Only helps McCain.

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Bi-Polar Bear wrote:

useless question... how was bush doing against gore before he moved into the White House?

No, it's not a useless question. There is a fundamental mismatch right now in that the Republicans have chosen their candidate and Democrats have not. Obama is not campaigning for president yet because he's still trying to be the nominee. Nobody is even paying attention to McCain right now.

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well we agree on that.

And Hillary and Obama have written all of the McCains ads for him already. and you can't lay this all on Hillary. she has had to parry as many blows from as many sides for triple the amount of years that Obama has...let's see how he does. There's no doubt in my mind that he's going to get the nomination... I live in the real world.

My simple point is that I find it unbelievable that the dems can't seem to field a candidate that's not 30 POINTS ahead of McCain.... this shouldn't even be a contest.....

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FreeDuck wrote:

Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
useless question... how was bush doing against gore before he moved into the White House?

No, it's not a useless question. There is a fundamental mismatch right now in that the Republicans have chosen their candidate and Democrats have not. Obama is not campaigning for president yet because he's still trying to be the nominee. Nobody is even paying attention to McCain right now.

well that's a huge mistake. I am paying attention to him.... and he's depressing and scary.

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I do know what you mean. Main thing I'm saying is that I think it'll still get there. Hence the "Jenna's wedding" story quote. This long-time Bush guy is just assuming that it'll be the Obamas walking around the White House -- not the McCains or the Clintons.

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time will tell.

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As any polically savvy man or woman Smile

would realize, these polls that pit an actual nominee against a hypothetical nominee are meaningless.

30 points??? I understand that is hyperbole but Obama will surge ahead by about 10 points once he is the nominee.

I will again remind everyone that Kerry was 15 points ahead of Bush in March of 2004.

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time will tell

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Typo alert!

sozobe wrote:

This tells us stuff -- even if it's not Republican Level Horribleness (though as Robert Reich said when he endorsed Hillary, it's not far off), it tells us stuff.

When he endorsed OBAMA...

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I've got an idea. Why don't Obama drop out of the race so Hillary can concentrate on Mc Cain. Oh , I forgot, he has wanted to be president for most of his life and isn't about to quit for the good of the party.

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rabel22 wrote:

I've got an idea. Why don't Obama drop out of the race so Hillary can concentrate on Mc Cain. Oh , I forgot, he has wanted to be president for most of his life and isn't about to quit for the good of the party.

Plus, you know, he's easily in the lead... it's not really logical for the frontrunner to drop out, is it?

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FreeDuck wrote:

BPB how was McCain doing against Obama and Clinton before he was the presumptive nominee? The head to heads right now don't mean much.

I was re-reading the first pages of nimh's polling thread earlier tonight. McCain was doing quite well against either Obama or Clinton when he was at 10% in the Republican campaign ( ~ December 2007)

the Canadian media's been following this angle quite a bit more than it seems to be getting covered in the U.S., where Obama/Clinton's got all the attention.

The concern here is McCain, and how he's holding up against either of the current Democratic options (Edwards was the only one - in the early days - who seemed to have a solid chance against McCain).

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Obama Pummelled in Debate?

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