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Obama Pummelled in Debate?

 
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 05:37 pm
Tweety tried to get the head of the Dem Party of PA, a Hillary backer to predict a 57-43 or there abouts Hillary victory. Bob Hebert added a bit of santy to the program (Hardball) later noting that he is not quite sure Obama might not be helped by the "debate."
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 06:48 pm
nimh wrote:

Partly true, partly not so much.


That was great info, thanks nimh.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 07:21 pm
McGentrix wrote:
No Whining About the Media
By David Brooks

Quote:
Three quick points on the Democratic debate tonight:
First, Democrats, and especially Obama supporters, are going to jump all over ABC for the choice of topics: too many gaffe questions, not enough policy questions.
I understand the complaints, but I thought the questions were excellent. The journalist's job is to make politicians uncomfortable, to explore evasions, contradictions and vulnerabilities. Almost every question tonight did that. The candidates each looked foolish at times, but that's their own fault.
We may not like it, but issues like Jeremiah Wright, flag lapels and the Tuzla airport will be important in the fall. Remember how George H.W. Bush toured flag factories to expose Michael Dukakis. It's legitimate to see how the candidates will respond to these sorts of symbolic issues.
The middle section of the debate, meanwhile, was stupendous. Those could be the most important 30 minutes of this entire campaign, for reasons I will explain in point two:
Second, Obama and Clinton were completely irresponsible. As the first President Bush discovered, it is simply irresponsible statesmanship (and stupid politics) to make blanket pledges to win votes. Both candidates did that on vital issues.
Both promised to not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 or $250,000 a year. They both just emasculated their domestic programs. Returning the rich to their Clinton-era tax rates will yield, at best, $40 billion a year in revenue. It's impossible to fund a health care plan, let alone anything else, with that kind of money. The consequences are clear: if elected they will have to break their pledge, and thus destroy their credibility, or run a minimalist administration.
The second pledge was just as bad. Nobody knows what the situation in Iraq will be like. To pledge an automatic withdrawal is just insane. A mature politician would've been honest and said: I fully intend to withdraw, but I want to know what the reality is at that moment.
The third point concerns electability. The Democrats have a problem. All the signs point to a big Democratic year, and I still wouldn't bet against Obama winning the White House, but his background as a Hyde Park liberal is going to continue to dog him. No issue is crushing on its own, but it all adds up. For the life of me I can't figure out why he didn't have better answers on Wright and on the "bitter" comments. The superdelegates cannot have been comforted by his performance.
Final grades:
ABC: A
Clinton: B
Obama: D+





David Brooks Doesn't Have the Sense God Gave a Box of Tulip Bulbs




New York Times' columnist David Brooks appears to be one of the few people nonsensical enough to actually laud ABC's mix of jive-ass wankery and lack of conviction that was on display in last night's absurd debate. Why am I not surprised? If being out-of-touch were a clinical contagion, Brooks would file his columns from a lead-lined, underground vault at the Centers For Disease Control.

First, Democrats, and especially Obama supporters, are going to jump all over ABC for the choice of topics: too many gaffe questions, not enough policy questions.

And so they should! No Democrat I know has been wandering around in some sort of fugue, hoping that someone might finally answer that riveting, all-important question, "Does Reverend Jeremiah Wright love America?" Brooks is, perhaps, sidling up alongside a good point in invoking "Obama supporters" specifically. I felt last night's showing was the "Worst Debate Ever" because both candidates were treated poorly. When they trotted out that Pennsylvania voter to ask Hillary Clinton about Tuzla with the admonishment that she'd lost her vote, I did a full-body cringe! It was pointless melodrama deployed to cover up the moderator's own lack of cojones. Certainly, Obama's most earnest fans are all a-kvetch today, but they should a) understand that this is a good time for Obama to be taking the lion's share of the chin music, because it's a good thing to have a little bit of scar tissue when you face McCain, and b) think more broadly - last night's debate was bad for the discourse, and bad for all Democratic voters.

After that graf, however, Brooks loses sight of anything that even resembles having a lick of sense, and he strains hard to manufacture that pure product of the empty-headed intelligentsia: a bon-bon of non-thought dressed up in masturbatory intellectual contortions.

Behold this paragraph, and tremble:

We may not like it, but issues like Jeremiah Wright, flag lapels and the Tuzla airport will be important in the fall. Remember how George H.W. Bush toured flag factories to expose Michael Dukakis. It's legitimate to see how the candidates will respond to these sorts of symbolic issues.

You know what, David? I would love it - love it! - if by November, the most pressing issues facing the Republic were some preacher in Chicago I'd never heard of until this year, a trip some politician's wife took a decade ago, and the way we accessorize our lapels. That would be, like the Pope's speech yesterday, awesome. Because that would mean we'd no longer be at war in Iraq, no longer be facing a terrorist threat out of Pakistan and Afghanistan, no longer be in the midst of about ten separate economic crises, New Orleans would be fully rebuilt, and the New York Times wouldn't be falling into an ad revenue abyss. But somehow I think this is not going to be the case.

"Remember" how Bush 41 toured flag factories? Really? That's the example on which you are going to pin your argument? It was a moment of substance-free political high-camp. The only people that think that responses to "these sorts of symbolic issues" are "legitimate" are the preening narcissists who believe that being the 7659th reporter to ask Hillary Clinton about Tuzla is some sort of achievement.

Brooks goes on the assail Clinton and Obama - for three paragraphs! - for making "pledges" on taxes and the Iraq War. But it was Gibson and Stephanopoulos who insisted on pledges, not the candidates!

"Both promised to not raise taxes on those making less than $200,000 or $250,000 a year. They both just emasculated their domestic programs. Returning the rich to their Clinton-era tax rates will yield, at best, $40 billion a year in revenue."

Really? Show your math, please!

"Nobody knows what the situation in Iraq will be like. To pledge an automatic withdrawal is just insane. A mature politician would've been honest and said: I fully intend to withdraw, but I want to know what the reality is at that moment."

Oh, dear. Are we not adults? Can it not be said that every voter can appreciate the fact that in life, sometimes, circumstances change, and plans have to be altered? Does Brooks actually believe that we need to receive instruction on this matter? I don't need Clinton and Obama to reassure me that they'll not cling, unflinchingly, to plans if it's been demonstrated that an alternative course will achieve a better outcome, because they are running against John McCain. If I wanted a President who's pledged to continue out the merry march to certain doom, I'd vote for him.

Brooks concludes by asserting that the Democrats have "an electability problem" and that the issues raised last night will continue to impact Obama in the fall. "The superdelegates cannot have been comforted by his performance," he says. Well, the evidence so far indicates this is not the case. The matters that Obama needs to convince superdelegates on are the same today as they were last week. If the superdelegates are anything like me, last night's debate should have only produced a wellspring of sympathy for both candidates. That Brooks was comforted by the performance of ABC News last night only suggests that he's the one with a "crushing" credibility problem.
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 07:30 pm
The big loser is John McCain. Unless his henchman can come up with some new gotcha slime that can stick. The air has been completely taken out of the flag lapelgate, Rev Wrightgate, Biittergate, Weathermangate... even Snipergate is a dead issue.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 07:52 pm
Re: Gaffes, Flag Pins and '60s Radicals
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Please, PLEASE put the debates back under the authority of The League of Women Voters again so they are worth watching. I was so disgusted with the tabloid-type questions to Clinton and Obama. It was a waste of the candidate's time as well as mine. ---BBB

Tabloid type questions won't be necessary when the candidates are not tabloid candidates. BBB, your party needs better candidates. Alot better candidates. These two are losers. Neither one has the leadership skill or experience or the inspirational qualities needed to lead the country. I know its too late for the party machine to do all of this over, but seriously, this is being set up for another huge loss in November for the Democratic nominee again. Which I am very glad of because I think their political idealogy is poison.
0 Replies
 
Ramafuchs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 08:35 pm
I read all the tabloids besides the views of A2K participants view.

My English is 100 times better than BUSH and His fans.

If A2K stoop to the level of BUSH then count me out from this forum.
0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 08:39 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
I read all the tabloids besides the views of A2K participants view.

My English is 100 times better than BUSH and His fans.

If A2K stoop to the level of BUSH then count me out from this forum.


Based on your answers here, I would say you speak English about the same as Bush. OK, you probably can pronounce the word "nuclear" better.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 08:40 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
My English is 100 times better than BUSH and His fans.

Umm... I hate to break this to you, but...

Bush may be bad. But your English is worse. Which is perfectly fine - it's still better than my Hungarian. But maybe use some of the time that you now spend posting endless random bits of nothing to dozens of threads, on learning to articulate yourself better?

Then you can lecture about how bad other people's English is.
0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 08:43 pm
It's hopeless nimh. Rama just likes to see his name in print.
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 09:25 pm
sozobe wrote:
Heh, just saw the video... hit a good tone! The "brushing dirt off" gestures were great...


Oh, good--I just watched it and came straight here to see if you'd seen it too! I thought he hit a good tone too...it's just fun to watch him when he's being more at ease like that.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Apr, 2008 09:30 pm
Ramafuchs wrote:
My English is 100 times better than BUSH and His fans.

If A2K stoop to the level of BUSH then count me out from this forum.


Really?? Can we take that as a commitment?? When will be the happy day??
0 Replies
 
Roxxxanne
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 02:05 am
Re: Gaffes, Flag Pins and '60s Radicals
okie wrote:
BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:
Please, PLEASE put the debates back under the authority of The League of Women Voters again so they are worth watching. I was so disgusted with the tabloid-type questions to Clinton and Obama. It was a waste of the candidate's time as well as mine. ---BBB

Tabloid type questions won't be necessary when the candidates are not tabloid candidates. BBB, your party needs better candidates. Alot better candidates. These two are losers. Neither one has the leadership skill or experience or the inspirational qualities needed to lead the country. I know its too late for the party machine to do all of this over, but seriously, this is being set up for another huge loss in November for the Democratic nominee again. Which I am very glad of because I think their political idealogy is poison.


LOL you are delusional.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:26 am
cyphercat wrote:
sozobe wrote:
Heh, just saw the video... hit a good tone! The "brushing dirt off" gestures were great...


Oh, good--I just watched it and came straight here to see if you'd seen it too! I thought he hit a good tone too...it's just fun to watch him when he's being more at ease like that.


Yeah, I know!

I wonder what the people/person in the audience to his right (off-camera) were up to -- he kept laughing in that direction and seemed to be kind of egged on from there.

While it was funny it was also right on-message (new kind of politics, etc.), hope a lot of people see it.
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 05:55 am
Re: Gaffes, Flag Pins and '60s Radicals
Roxxxanne wrote:

LOL you are delusional.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Thanks for making my day.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 06:55 am
This is interesting...

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/189807.php

It's long, will get bits and pieces but recommend the original especially for links in it:

Quote:
Remember that woman from the debate last night who the moderators showed videotape of asking whether Barack Obama "believes in the flag"? Her name is Nash McCabe.

[...]

It turns out McCabe was featured in an April 4th story in the Times which begins like this ...

    Ask whom she might vote for in the coming presidential primary election and Nash McCabe, 52, seems almost relieved to be able to unpack the dossier she has been collecting in her head. It is not about whom she likes, but more a bill of particulars about why she cannot vote for Senator Barack Obama of Illinois. "How can I vote for a president who won't wear a flag pin?" Mrs. McCabe, a recently unemployed clerk typist, said


[...]

I think there's something wrong with it. And part of it is that you usually assume that these citizen questions come from people who are at least partly conflicted about their support if not undecided. But it does reinforce my sense that the disgraceful nature of the debate wasn't just something that came together wrong, some iffy ideas taken to far, but was basically engineered to be crap from the ground up.

[...]

Late Update: Turns out McClatchy is on this case and has plenty of details about how ABC tracked McCabe down.


McClatchy link:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/227/story/34071.html
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:13 am
http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gen/18896/thumbs/s-HECK-small.jpg

Watch it:

No matters how this came about; whether Stephanopoulos got his talking points straight from an interview from Hanity where he says he was taking notes or even if McCain's crowd was influencing people in the crowd and their questions; it was a horrible debate because it hardly focused on the issues which matter more and more as each day passes. Such as high prices in both food and gas, Iraq and related issues there, health care and a host of other neglected issues more important than Obama's former pastor, his accessories or lack thereof or any lame gotcha issue obsessing the media today. Obama has it exactly right in that Hillary Clinton is playing right into the whole thing and so far it seems to be backfiring (nationwide) so I hope she keeps it up.

Quote:


source
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:22 am
sozobe wrote:
This is interesting...

Quote:
I think there's something wrong with it. And part of it is that you usually assume that these citizen questions come from people who are at least partly conflicted about their support if not undecided.

Why? I sort of assume that the questioners just constitute a cross-slice of the electorate - or in the case of primary debates, the Democratic or Republican electorate.

Would you/the author have a problem in an Obama supporter getting the chance to ask a critical question from Clinton at a debate? How would you/the author react to, say, news that an Obama supporter was barred from asking a critical question of Clinton at a debate?

Let's follow this line of logic through to the general elections debates. Pretty much all Democrats and Republicans will have a preference for one of the two candidates. So according to this logic, only Independents should be allowed to ask questions in those debates. Isnt that nonsense?

Quote:
But it does reinforce my sense that the disgraceful nature of the debate wasn't just something that came together wrong, some iffy ideas taken to far, but was basically engineered to be crap from the ground up.

They tracked down a critical citizen who seemed representative of a typical slice of Pennsylvania voters to represent, so to say, that slice of voters. The slice that has been a priori sceptical about Obama, but constitutes a significant share of the Democratic electorate in the state and will likely mark the outcome of the elections.

Sure, the question itself was crap -- surely they could have found someone from the same background with a more substantive beef. And sure, they should have tracked down someone similar for Hillary. But the choice itself of the network to track down someone they'd noticed asking a critical question earlier is indicative that the debate "was basically engineered to be crap from the ground up"?

The debate may have been crap, but this line of questioning I think is all boneheaded.

Quote:
Late Update: Turns out McClatchy is on this case and has plenty of details about how ABC tracked McCabe down.

And quite the heartbreaking story it is too... Damn. <shakes head>

If anything, reading a life story like this should give Obama (supporters) pause about his appeal and how to deal with the challenge there, rather than just mining it for some proof of an evil conspiracy.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:37 am
I dunno, I think it's interesting.

As for the article, definitely a tragic story. I don't see any evil conspiracy (was an evil conspiracy ever an accusation)? I do see someone who is anti-Obama and doesn't seem to have a clear reason for it. She doesn't say "I think Hillary would be better at reforming health care," which I'd get. But no, it's:

Quote:


What?

Anyway, not a big deal. I sympathize with her, and don't hold anything against her. I just thought the whole thing was interesting -- that ABC would find this a worthwhile question and then would seek someone out to ask it. Why not the moderators?

It does seem to suggest a certain element of gotcha-ness -- not a conspiracy or anything, just "let's get those ratings up." Nothing new there, just an added element of "ew."

If this woman was asking something about health care, my concern would go from low to zero I think. But flag lapel pins? Whatever.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:42 am
Meanwhile, I thought this was interesting too:

http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/04/dirt_off_your_shoulder.php

I had no idea about the Jay-Z connection. Had to be purposeful, right? (Completely new to me, dunno how commonly used it is.)
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Apr, 2008 07:47 am
(From the comments -- I don't know if it's true or not but it made me laugh):

RR wrote:
He was way, way cooler than that. He mixed a Jay-Z dirt-off-the-shoulder reference with a Rolling Stones scrape-the-****-right-off-your-shoes Sweet Virginia reference immediately afterward. Talk about a two-toned dog whistle!


The comments also seem to be indicating that it was a b-ball thing before it was a Jay-Z thing.

Anyway. Amusing. :-)
0 Replies
 
 

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