A quick story about racism.

Here is what happens, David. Of course, this does not happen in all areas and in all towns but since the rise of Black Power and Malcom X and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the lachrymose guilt laden liberal, the change of a school from majority white or Hispanic to all black in most major American cities has resulted in a great change in

a. Achievement scores

b. Student behavior

c. Veteran teacher transfers out of the school

d. More rapid turnover of administrators

e. parental dissatisfaction with the school.

I am sure, David, that you know that in major American cities, there has been a great many changes in schools. In a large number of school districts, some parents have become militant. Part of their militancy stems from their earnest desire to have thier children suceed scholasitically. Unfortunately, there are far too many parents and ORGANIZATIONS who view the changes in a school in their neighborhoods as a wonderful place to gain political power and JOBS.

Discipline?

I will quote for you from the Chicago Tribune--today's paper. It is a "welcome letter written by a 6th grader--NOTE - A 6th Grader-. There was to be a merger of schools because both buildings were underutilized.

Here is what the 6th grader wrote--

"My name is Antwon and I like to box. I have the power but no speed. I do like play fighting and real but I don't like y'all but y'all cool now so don't come over heer trying to fight cause we ain't going to play".

The attempt by non black teachers to discipline is usually futile especially if the students have the impression from the home that Whitey is the enemy.

The turn over in the schools is awesome.

1 Reply

Many teachers leave. Why?

Note:

finalShafqat.356
Introduction and Background School Funding and the Impact of SES Teacher Turnover Partnerships Parental Involvement Conclusion Teacher Turnover

Research has suggested that impoverished schools, in comparsion to more affluent schools, have greater teacher turnover rates (Ingersoll, 17). The same trend follows for schools with more minority students (Guin, 7). High rates of teacher turnover not only have an impact on staffing within schools, but also on the performance of schools. With significant turnover rates, schools have problems setting up a sound curriculum and increasing camaraderie among staff members (Guin, 1). Teachers who leave schools have cited the following reasons for their acquittal: low levels of administrative support, problems within the administration, low salaries, little student discipline, and nominal ability to influence classroom and school decisions (Ingersoll, 18). The lack of respect which teachers from inner city schools such as those in Newark, New Jersey are given needs to be addressed. Losing these teachers who likely have many years of experience only lowers the quality of instruction received by students.

***************************************************************

I do not think it will be a surprise to you, David, that some( too many) black parents, frustrated by the inability of most of their children to succeed in school, strike out against what they see as the enemy--teachers who do not UNDERSTAND their children. These teachers are very very often white teachers and, it very well may be that some of these teachers are not trained well enough to be able to put up with the disorderely conduct of most of their students, however, most of these teachers were the best that the schools had to offer and had worked for ten, twenty and thirty years previously with good rapport with students, parents and school administrators.

*******************************************************************

In some cities, Administrative turnover was incredibly high. One of the major reasons for this, at least in Chicago, was a Federal Guideline that strongly encouraged teachers and principals to serve in schools where the student population was not of the same race as they.

In a city with over 400 elementary schools and nearly 80 High schools, a switch was made one year because there were not enough white teachers in black schools and vice versa.

Approximately eighty schools transferred out teachers and Principals.

Black Principals came to white schools and White Principals went to black schools. Black teachers came to white schools and white teachers went to black schools.

If you think that this improved student achievement and discipline, you would be very very wrong.

AFTER FORTY YEARS OF MASSIVE INFUSIONS OF MONEY FROM THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, STUDENTS IN INNER CITY SCHOOLS HAVE NOT GAINED IN ACHIEVEMENT.

The best evidence I can give for this, David, is the evidence from the Kansas City Schools. Note:

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@2PacksAday,

Quote:

Anyway....Respect...that is the key, and in my opinion you did the right thing by speaking up....I do not cuss when I'm working on a church, or working for or around religious folk....even though I poke fun of religion at every given chance...I just don't do it....simply out of respect.

Respect of whom? I don't think that we know that any blacks were present, so we may not be talking about respect towards an individual. Respect of the institutional standard on race speech, is that it?

The problem of course with these PC language rules is that it allows the most squeamish to dictate everyone else's behaviour. Empowering the squeamish encourages the trait, or at least the imitation of the trait, which needs to be kept in check.

2 Replies

The Kansas School Debacle proved once and for all that more money is not the answer to the question-How do we improve student achievment-

Note:

Money And School Performance:
Lessons from the Kansas City Desegregation Experiment

by Paul Ciotti

Executive Summary

For decades critics of the public schools have been saying, "You can't solve educational problems by throwing money at them." The education establishment and its supporters have replied, "No one's ever tried." In Kansas City they did try. To improve the education of black students and encourage desegregation, a federal judge invited the Kansas City, Missouri, School District to come up with a cost-is-no-object educational plan and ordered local and state taxpayers to find the money to pay for it.

Kansas City spent as much as $11,700 per pupil--more money per pupil, on a cost of living adjusted basis, than any other of the 280 largest districts in the country. The money bought higher teachers' salaries, 15 new schools, and such amenities as an Olympic-sized swimming pool with an underwater viewing room, television and animation studios, a robotics lab, a 25-acre wildlife sanctuary, a zoo, a model United Nations with simultaneous translation capability, and field trips to Mexico and Senegal. The student-teacher ratio was 12 or 13 to 1, the lowest of any major school district in the country.

The results were dismal. Test scores did not rise; the black-white gap did not diminish; and there was less, not greater, integration.

The Kansas City experiment suggests that, indeed, educational problems can't be solved by throwing money at them, that the structural problems of our current educational system are far more important than a lack of material resources, and that the focus on desegregation diverted attention from the real problem, low achievement.

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Yes, david, Joe the Jag is a satire on Joe--He thinks he is as good as a lawyer in the Judge Advocate General;s office. He has, however, shown that he is a wimp who, after I destroyed him totally in a couple of arguments, thinks that I will go away and not respond to his misstatements. I will. Below is another view of Joe the Jag's idiocy.

1 Reply

Joe the Jag wrote:

On the other hand, if you practice IP law for a few years and then decide to switch, you'd probably have to reorient yourself. Depending on what you were doing in IP and what you'd be doing in corporate, the transition might be difficult or it might be easy. It's impossible to say.

His advice is the sheerest bullshit. I dare him to name people who practiced IP for a few years and switched successfully to corporate. You might try to do that unsuccessfully in a moth eaten law firm( the only kind Joe the Jag would be able to work for( even if he swept the floors after all had left) but you can't do that in big law.

1 Reply

@genoves,

Quote:

Anyway....Respect...that is the key, and in my opinion you did the right thing by speaking up....I do not cuss when I'm working on a church, or working for or around religious folk....even though I poke fun of religion at every given chance...I just don't do it....simply out of respect.

Okay - even though I'm going to ask this question- it does NOT mean I advocate racist speech in the workplace or disrespecting people in general.

How is it respectful, or rather, what good does it really do in the long run - if you put on a false face when you are in someone's presence, you PRETEND that you respect them and their beliefs or whatever or whoever they are - but as soon as you leave their presence- you poke fun at them, or resume your hateful speech, etc?

I think this is the question that I have. It's not a problem for me to be respectful in the workplace whether that be a church or a school, because I don't really have to cover up any innate prejudice or bias in those situations. But I'll tell you - when I was working in the prison and one inmate asked me what I thought of drug dealers - I had to tell him the truth.

And it didn't lead to any hard feelings or revolt...it led to an understanding- I understood a little more of where he was coming from and he understood a little more of where I was coming from (although he didn't change my mind about what I thought about drug dealers at all).

I understand the need for polite and appropriate behavior in the workplace - most definitely. But I do think that David and Hawkeye have a point about the possible pitfalls or inadvisability or usefulness of putting on these politically correct facades and MANDATING tolerance.
It can be attempted. But it's not really very effective at the end of the day - and sometimes- and I've seen this with my own eyes- it causes more resentment and tension than anything else.

Because don't you think the people who are being 'tolerated' or tokenly 'respected' know that's the case?
Don't you think the black students in Genoves' school know that they're not welcome - even though all the language is 'appropriate' and the welcome mat has been laid out at the door?

If it were me - I think I'd just say - Jesus, have enough respect for me to just say what you bloody think- and then maybe we can get somewhere with these issues - if we can start from some sort of semblance of position of the truth.

2 Replies

@aidan,

Sorry - that quote was 2packs- Genoves didn't say that - I just clicked on his post to reply and forgot to indicate that 2packs was the speaker.

1 Reply

@aidan,

That's ok, Aidan. In a forum like this it is easy to make inadvertent errors.

0 Replies

@genoves,

genoves wrote:

Yes, david, Joe the Jag is a satire on Joe--He thinks he is as good as a lawyer in the Judge Advocate General;s office. He has, however, shown that he is a wimp who, after I destroyed him totally in a couple of arguments, thinks that I will go away and not respond to his misstatements. I will. Below is another view of Joe the Jag's idiocy.

What is the link to the Judge Advocate General's Corps ?
How is that involved ?

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

He said he was as good as anyone who was in the JAG!

He is a liar of course.

0 Replies

@genoves,

genoves wrote:

Quote:

Here is what happens, David. Of course, this does not happen in all areas and in all towns but since the rise of Black Power and Malcom X and Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and the lachrymose guilt laden liberal, the change of a school from majority white or Hispanic to all black in most major American cities has resulted in a great change in

a. Achievement scores
b. Student behavior

Does this mean that the scores and behavior of the blacks improve
if there are whites around ?

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

This is typical Rapist Boy idiocy. The expression "Afro-American engineering," or whatever the particular form is, is an ostensibly sly way of saying "n*gger-rigged." It doesn't matter if anyone involved were black, because even if everyone present were not black, it still promotes a hateful and demeaning stereotype. That's not about political rectitude, it's about decency and it's about reality. I was raised in a strict household where the word "n*gger" was not permitted. It was not permitted because if is ill-bred language, and it was not permitted because it promoted a point of view which was both false and injurious. There is no reason, good or bad, to assume that anyone is less capable of an engineering or mechanical solution because of the color of one's skin, and the promotion of stereotypes to that effect prolong racist attitudes beyond what long ago should have been the realization of the inherent injustice of such attitudes. Whining about "PC" is just a case of special pleading to continue to promote injurious and false stereotypes. This is not a call to ignore reality (unless you allege that people cannot be relied upon to perform adequate engineering or mechanical tasks if their skin happens to be brown), nor is it a call to distort history. It is a call for both decency and a recognition of reality.

I'm sure you would love, Rapist Boy, a world in which you can perpetuate lying and injurious stereotypes. Don't be surprised, though, if you find yourself more and more alone in your predilection.

0 Replies

@aidan,

aidan wrote:

Quote:
Anyway....Respect...that is the key, and in my opinion you did the right thing by speaking up....I do not cuss when I'm working on a church, or working for or around religious folk....even though I poke fun of religion at every given chance...I just don't do it....simply out of respect.

Okay - even though I'm going to ask this question- it does NOT mean I advocate racist speech in the workplace or disrespecting people in general.

How is it respectful, or rather, what good does it really do in the long run - if you put on a false face when you are in someone's presence, you PRETEND that you respect them and their beliefs or whatever or whoever they are - but as soon as you leave their presence- you poke fun at them, or resume your hateful speech, etc?

The thing is. I really don't care about their comfort, since they do not care for mine. Those people who are going to think and speak hatefully are going to do as they please. This isna't a matter of my responsibility, but theirs. What is being said here by the likes of hawkeye and David is that they are going to say what they want and they are beyond reproach. That's crap.

In the case of what happened. They might have just continued using such language, but it would have come at the price of the respect of their peers in that lab and potentially how their team would be viewed professionally. We let them decide what was more important to them. They stopped.

aidan wrote:

I think this is the question that I have. It's not a problem for me to be respectful in the workplace whether that be a church or a school, because I don't really have to cover up any innate prejudice or bias in those situations. But I'll tell you - when I was working in the prison and one inmate asked me what I thought of drug dealers - I had to tell him the truth.

That's a solicited request though is it not?

aidan wrote:

And it didn't lead to any hard feelings or revolt...it led to an understanding- I understood a little more of where he was coming from and he understood a little more of where I was coming from (although he didn't change my mind about what I thought about drug dealers at all).

Yeah, and telling the other team leader about the incident and letting him handle it didn't lead to revolt or some later violent act like hawkeye so idiotically suggested I could be to blame for.

aidan wrote:

I understand the need for polite and appropriate behavior in the workplace - most definitely. But I do think that David and Hawkeye have a point about the possible pitfalls or inadvisability or usefulness of putting on these politically correct facades and MANDATING tolerance.
It can be attempted. But it's not really very effective at the end of the day - and sometimes- and I've seen this with my own eyes- it causes more resentment and tension than anything else.

This is a total strawman aidan. Don't fall for it. Ask yourself: What mandate? No mandate exists here. As for resentment and tension, I think the defamation of minority groups creates more tension and I think that resentment is a hell of a lot more justified than some racist with a crybaby attitude who gets pulled aside by his boss. He asked for it.

aidan wrote:

Because don't you think the people who are being 'tolerated' or tokenly 'respected' know that's the case?
Don't you think the black students in Genoves' school know that they're not welcome - even though all the language is 'appropriate' and the welcome mat has been laid out at the door?

First off, I don't believe this genoves yahoo has a school. This is largely based on the fact that in his posting history, he's shown that he has a pattern of falsifying who he is. His credibility is shot.

Secondly, those minority children need advocates willing to stand up for them. If we do nothing, then we are a part of the problem.

aidan wrote:

If it were me - I think I'd just say - Jesus, have enough respect for me to just say what you bloody think- and then maybe we can get somewhere with these issues - if we can start from some sort of semblance of position of the truth.

There is no truth in racism aidan. None. It is an inherently illogical and immature world view.

T
K
O

1 Reply

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Respect of whom? I don't think that we know that any blacks were present, so we may not be talking about respect towards an individual. Respect of the institutional standard on race speech, is that it?

Again, what school of ethics did you fail out of?

hawkeye10 wrote:

The problem of course with these PC language rules is that it allows the most squeamish to dictate everyone else's behaviour. Empowering the squeamish encourages the trait, or at least the imitation of the trait, which needs to be kept in check.

What PC language rules? This was about professionalism and good taste. I think that in this case it was perfectly appropriate for this team member to be put in check so he could understand how his language effected others.

T
K
O

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

For you, of all people, to be moralizing is just laughable.

0 Replies

@hawkeye10,

hawkeye10 wrote:

Great, so not only did we allow employers the right to monitor their employees on the job, then moved to allowing drug tests and credit checks so that employees can be monitored off of the job, but now employers have the right to force employees to pretend that they agree with the institutional biases imposed by the bosses??!!!

Agreeing with the boss has always been a necessary component of some jobs.

Making sure that your employees are not offensive asses is not a new power that bosses have.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

I don't give a damn what people think.

I don't give a damn about what people say in private.

I do give a damn about how they behave in public. If they're in public, then their behavior impinges on me.

0 Replies

@OmSigDAVID,

OmSigDAVID wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:

This is not an issue of freedoms David. [ ?? ]
Your attempt to defend this kind of ignorance under the guise of principle is not fooling anyone.

The HELL its not !

The hell it is. As I mentioned before, if the employees believe their freedoms are being abused (they are not) then they can choose to sue, or choose to work somewhere else.

One does not have the same rights in public that one has in one's own home.

0 Replies

@Diest TKO,

I wasn't talking about your situation Diest. I was talking in general.

2 Replies

A quick story about racism.

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