sorry snood... he's as much a white man as a black man.... you can't claim him all for your own just because he's the flavor of the week... anymore than Tiger Woods....hitch your wagon to a star though pal...
Dude... Bi-Polar Bear wrote:sorry snood... he's as much a white man as a black man.... you can't claim him all for your own just because he's the flavor of the week... anymore than Tiger Woods....hitch your wagon to a star though pal...
Is it really that hard for you to figure out that if you look black, you are black in these United States? I've learned that that is not the case throughout the Americas but here in the U.S.? Where have you been where it wasn't so?
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:sorry snood... he's as much a white man as a black man.... you can't claim him all for your own just because he's the flavor of the week... anymore than Tiger Woods....hitch your wagon to a star though pal...
Is it really that hard for you to figure out that if you look black, you are black in these United States? I've learned that that is not the case throughout the Americas but here in the U.S.? Where have you been where it wasn't so?
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:sorry snood... he's as much a white man as a black man.... you can't claim him all for your own just because he's the flavor of the week... anymore than Tiger Woods....hitch your wagon to a star though pal...
Is it really that hard for you to figure out that if you look black, you are black in these United States? I've learned that that is not the case throughout the Americas but here in the U.S.? Where have you been where it wasn't so?
Ticomaya wrote:But he didn't, dude...blatham wrote:Possibly finn was morally outraged by the sexuality he references here. Sounds like he was. And it seems as if tico was as well.
Someone -- ostensibly a preacher -- delivering a sermon in church, ought not emulate anyone "ridin dirty." I understand your liberal thinking on the subject won't allow you to find it repugnant, but you are beyond help. Nobody should be looking at you as their moral compass.
I thought you were a DA... and you're not familiar with the term Ridin Dirty... really?
Finn dAbuzz wrote:First of all, do you really believe that it was the GOP or conservatives who are responsible for the Pastor Disaster? Sean Hannity, among others, were talking about the Wright connection for months before it got traction. How did it get traction? ABC - that bastion of the right-wing media, digs up the dirty videos.
Funny you should mention Hannity.
See, the whole fracas around Wright was bound to happen - for sure. No rightwing conspiracy was needed for that.
But one thing I had not seen at all until about a week and a half ago was the theory that maybe - purely hypothetically speaking, always, of course - maybe Obama himself is a black radical who hates whites and his country!
First time I saw that line of speculation was by Foxfyre, I think. Then came Okie. And I was just kind of incredulous.
I mean, obviously Obama was going to be slammed in terms of his judgement - staying in that church when the reverend is found to have said all kinds of inflammatory, even outright ridiculous (eg AIDS) things. How could he stay in there, when it's so clear from everything he has said, written and done, that he doesnt believe that kind of ****? Was he cowardly? Did he let his judgement be clouded by personal or community loyalties? If he spoke out (far) too late with this guy, can he be trusted to make the right kind of judgement calls as President?
That kind of argument was to be expected. I dont think it holds a whole lot of water - I mean, obviously there's something to it, but it only goes so far IMO - but its a logical argument to follow from the revelations.
What I sincerely didnt expect, and was just downright disbelieving of when it appeared here, was that people would actually speculate that hey, Obama himself might hate America, hate whites, believe that the government spread AIDS, see the US as a US of KKK-A - all that stuff. I mean, people seriously speculating on that.
I asked both Fox and Okie, OK, but what in heavens name are you going on here? Is it purely his attendance of Wright's church, nothing else? If he attended Wright's church, he must have agreed with everything the man said? Is that all? Or have you seen any kind of indications in his actual actions as a politician, in his words, in his writings, that he would share Wright's views on these issues?
Fox got to the flag pin thing and the hand-on-heart during the national anthem thing. She admitted that those things would be meaningless, but argued that knowing that he attended Wright's church, those are in fact meaningful indicators. Couldnt come up with anything else. Okie referred to Obama talking about "change" a lot, and how that indicated that he might well be a believer in Black Liberation Theology or even be a Marxist - because BLTers and Marxists also talk about "change" a lot.
I am still incredulous. Here you have a man who's written two books, who has a decade's worth of political actions and speeches to be judged on, and everything in it shows he disagrees with Wright on those counts. And yet people seriously speculate that all of that, integrally, is a smoke screen and that Obama in reality - secretly, basically - shares all of Wright's most extreme views. Where in heaven's name does that come from? Because that is one line of argument I havent heard from even the most resentful Clinton supporters, it's only conservatives. It seems pure fever swamp stuff, on a line with the emails alleging that Obama is "secretly Muslim".
Well, yesterday I saw a videoclip of Sean Hannity on Fox. I quickly jotted down what he said:
[list]"What if he [Obama] really deep down in his heart thinks like Pastor Wright - and I dont know that he does - but if he did, that would mean that a racist and an anti-semite would be President of the United States."[/list]
This is fever swamp speculation. I mean, this is the very definition of a smear: speculatively ascribing - always with the qualification that, of course, we cant know for sure, but still, imagine that it might be true - some outrageous trait to a candidate, without any evidence whatsoever. And you got it live on Fox News.
So yeah, the Wright affair would have erupted any which way, sure. But yeah, it's "right wing media" who take it into the fever swamp to insinuate that Obama is an "unpatriotic" "hater" who himself "despises America" - Advocate's got that right.
nimh wrote:Finn dAbuzz wrote:First of all, do you really believe that it was the GOP or conservatives who are responsible for the Pastor Disaster? Sean Hannity, among others, were talking about the Wright connection for months before it got traction. How did it get traction? ABC - that bastion of the right-wing media, digs up the dirty videos.
Funny you should mention Hannity.
See, the whole fracas around Wright was bound to happen - for sure. No rightwing conspiracy was needed for that.
But one thing I had not seen at all until about a week and a half ago was the theory that maybe - purely hypothetically speaking, always, of course - maybe Obama himself is a black radical who hates whites and his country!
First time I saw that line of speculation was by Foxfyre, I think. Then came Okie. And I was just kind of incredulous.
I mean, obviously Obama was going to be slammed in terms of his judgement - staying in that church when the reverend is found to have said all kinds of inflammatory, even outright ridiculous (eg AIDS) things. How could he stay in there, when it's so clear from everything he has said, written and done, that he doesnt believe that kind of ****? Was he cowardly? Did he let his judgement be clouded by personal or community loyalties? If he spoke out (far) too late with this guy, can he be trusted to make the right kind of judgement calls as President?
That kind of argument was to be expected. I dont think it holds a whole lot of water - I mean, obviously there's something to it, but it only goes so far IMO - but its a logical argument to follow from the revelations.
What I sincerely didnt expect, and was just downright disbelieving of when it appeared here, was that people would actually speculate that hey, Obama himself might hate America, hate whites, believe that the government spread AIDS, see the US as a US of KKK-A - all that stuff. I mean, people seriously speculating on that.
I asked both Fox and Okie, OK, but what in heavens name are you going on here? Is it purely his attendance of Wright's church, nothing else? If he attended Wright's church, he must have agreed with everything the man said? Is that all? Or have you seen any kind of indications in his actual actions as a politician, in his words, in his writings, that he would share Wright's views on these issues?
Fox got to the flag pin thing and the hand-on-heart during the national anthem thing. She admitted that those things would be meaningless, but argued that knowing that he attended Wright's church, those are in fact meaningful indicators. Couldnt come up with anything else. Okie referred to Obama talking about "change" a lot, and how that indicated that he might well be a believer in Black Liberation Theology or even be a Marxist - because BLTers and Marxists also talk about "change" a lot.
I am still incredulous. Here you have a man who's written two books, who has a decade's worth of political actions and speeches to be judged on, and everything in it shows he disagrees with Wright on those counts. And yet people seriously speculate that all of that, integrally, is a smoke screen and that Obama in reality - secretly, basically - shares all of Wright's most extreme views. Where in heaven's name does that come from? Because that is one line of argument I havent heard from even the most resentful Clinton supporters, it's only conservatives. It seems pure fever swamp stuff, on a line with the emails alleging that Obama is "secretly Muslim".
Well, yesterday I saw a videoclip of Sean Hannity on Fox. I quickly jotted down what he said:
[list]"What if he [Obama] really deep down in his heart thinks like Pastor Wright - and I dont know that he does - but if he did, that would mean that a racist and an anti-semite would be President of the United States."[/list]
This is fever swamp speculation. I mean, this is the very definition of a smear: speculatively ascribing - always with the qualification that, of course, we cant know for sure, but still, imagine that it might be true - some outrageous trait to a candidate, without any evidence whatsoever. And you got it live on Fox News.
So yeah, the Wright affair would have erupted any which way, sure. But yeah, it's "right wing media" who take it into the fever swamp to insinuate that Obama is an "unpatriotic" "hater" who himself "despises America" - Advocate's got that right.
This a bit disingenuous.
If you or I were to be found, repeatedly, drinking at the bar of the local brothel, should anyone take seriously our righteous indignation over the fact that Wags in town insinuated that we were indulging in more of the brothel's wares, than beverages?
Personally, I don't think Obama buys into Wright's spew, but there seems to be only two reasonable explanations for his attendence at this church over 20 years:
1) He buys into the spew.
2) He joined the church for political expediency; for "Street Cred," hardly ever attended services, and all this nonsense about Wright being his spiritual mentor is just that. (There's a twist on this that may or may not be credible: He joined the church because his wife buys into the spew)
There's nothing all that horrible about the straight #2. Plenty of politicians do this sort of thing: Any of the male Kennedys, Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton, and Tom Delay to name but a few, but the essence of Obama is New Politics. If he turns out to be like all the rest, that's major trouble for him. He has nothing to sell but promise. If the promise is suspect, his candidacy implodes.
I have no doubt that some will argue that there are more than these two explanations, and one of them is the nonsense we have been hearing from Obama himself, but it's hard to credit such people with objective sense.
I also have no doubt that many, like you, will dismiss the implications of the only two reasonable explanations. You're invested. How can you let this break the connection?
The bottom line is that no matter how you explain this mess, something smells like good old fashioned political rot. For a candidate whose only conceivable platform is Change, anything tying him to the old has to hurt.
Clearly it doesn't hurt him with his devotees. They have taken the pledge and will not turn back over something like this, but he can't win in November with only his devotees - hell he can't win the nomination with only his devotees.
So if there is a portion of the electorate that believes he buys Wright's spew or that he is a phony, what difference does it make? He opened the door. All this whining about right-wing smears is not only hypocritical (The NYT's and John McCain) but wimpy.
