Obama Exposed As Black

dlowan wrote:

Since I find all American mainstream tv outlets to the right of centre your ABC comment is meaningless to me. I assume you think it to be a left outlet and that was the point of your comment?

That says more about your position from the center than it does about the positions of mainstream media in America, but yes ABC is, objectively, considered a left of center outlet as Fox is, objectively, considered a right of center outlet

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

nimh wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

First of all, do you really believe that it was the GOP or conservatives who are responsible for the Pastor Disaster? Sean Hannity, among others, were talking about the Wright connection for months before it got traction. How did it get traction? ABC - that bastion of the right-wing media, digs up the dirty videos.

Funny you should mention Hannity.

See, the whole fracas around Wright was bound to happen - for sure. No rightwing conspiracy was needed for that.

But one thing I had not seen at all until about a week and a half ago was the theory that maybe - purely hypothetically speaking, always, of course - maybe Obama himself is a black radical who hates whites and his country!

First time I saw that line of speculation was by Foxfyre, I think. Then came Okie. And I was just kind of incredulous.

I mean, obviously Obama was going to be slammed in terms of his judgement - staying in that church when the reverend is found to have said all kinds of inflammatory, even outright ridiculous (eg AIDS) things. How could he stay in there, when it's so clear from everything he has said, written and done, that he doesnt believe that kind of ****? Was he cowardly? Did he let his judgement be clouded by personal or community loyalties? If he spoke out (far) too late with this guy, can he be trusted to make the right kind of judgement calls as President?

That kind of argument was to be expected. I dont think it holds a whole lot of water - I mean, obviously there's something to it, but it only goes so far IMO - but its a logical argument to follow from the revelations.

What I sincerely didnt expect, and was just downright disbelieving of when it appeared here, was that people would actually speculate that hey, Obama himself might hate America, hate whites, believe that the government spread AIDS, see the US as a US of KKK-A - all that stuff. I mean, people seriously speculating on that.

I asked both Fox and Okie, OK, but what in heavens name are you going on here? Is it purely his attendance of Wright's church, nothing else? If he attended Wright's church, he must have agreed with everything the man said? Is that all? Or have you seen any kind of indications in his actual actions as a politician, in his words, in his writings, that he would share Wright's views on these issues?

Fox got to the flag pin thing and the hand-on-heart during the national anthem thing. She admitted that those things would be meaningless, but argued that knowing that he attended Wright's church, those are in fact meaningful indicators. Couldnt come up with anything else. Okie referred to Obama talking about "change" a lot, and how that indicated that he might well be a believer in Black Liberation Theology or even be a Marxist - because BLTers and Marxists also talk about "change" a lot.

I am still incredulous. Here you have a man who's written two books, who has a decade's worth of political actions and speeches to be judged on, and everything in it shows he disagrees with Wright on those counts. And yet people seriously speculate that all of that, integrally, is a smoke screen and that Obama in reality - secretly, basically - shares all of Wright's most extreme views. Where in heaven's name does that come from? Because that is one line of argument I havent heard from even the most resentful Clinton supporters, it's only conservatives. It seems pure fever swamp stuff, on a line with the emails alleging that Obama is "secretly Muslim".

Well, yesterday I saw a videoclip of Sean Hannity on Fox. I quickly jotted down what he said:

[list]"What if he [Obama] really deep down in his heart thinks like Pastor Wright - and I dont know that he does - but if he did, that would mean that a racist and an anti-semite would be President of the United States."[/list]

This is fever swamp speculation. I mean, this is the very definition of a smear: speculatively ascribing - always with the qualification that, of course, we cant know for sure, but still, imagine that it might be true - some outrageous trait to a candidate, without any evidence whatsoever. And you got it live on Fox News.

So yeah, the Wright affair would have erupted any which way, sure. But yeah, it's "right wing media" who take it into the fever swamp to insinuate that Obama is an "unpatriotic" "hater" who himself "despises America" - Advocate's got that right.

This a bit disingenuous.

If you or I were to be found, repeatedly, drinking at the bar of the local brothel, should anyone take seriously our righteous indignation over the fact that Wags in town insinuated that we were indulging in more of the brothel's wares, than beverages?

Personally, I don't think Obama buys into Wright's spew, but there seems to be only two reasonable explanations for his attendence at this church over 20 years:

1) He buys into the spew.

2) He joined the church for political expediency; for "Street Cred," hardly ever attended services, and all this nonsense about Wright being his spiritual mentor is just that. (There's a twist on this that may or may not be credible: He joined the church because his wife buys into the spew)

There's nothing all that horrible about the straight #2. Plenty of politicians do this sort of thing: Any of the male Kennedys, Richard Nixon, Bill Clinton, and Tom Delay to name but a few, but the essence of Obama is New Politics. If he turns out to be like all the rest, that's major trouble for him. He has nothing to sell but promise. If the promise is suspect, his candidacy implodes.

I have no doubt that some will argue that there are more than these two explanations, and one of them is the nonsense we have been hearing from Obama himself, but it's hard to credit such people with objective sense.

I also have no doubt that many, like you, will dismiss the implications of the only two reasonable explanations. You're invested. How can you let this break the connection?

The bottom line is that no matter how you explain this mess, something smells like good old fashioned political rot. For a candidate whose only conceivable platform is Change, anything tying him to the old has to hurt.

Clearly it doesn't hurt him with his devotees. They have taken the pledge and will not turn back over something like this, but he can't win in November with only his devotees - hell he can't win the nomination with only his devotees.

So if there is a portion of the electorate that believes he buys Wright's spew or that he is a phony, what difference does it make? He opened the door. All this whining about right-wing smears is not only hypocritical (The NYT's and John McCain) but wimpy.

Here's another "possibility"...
#3
The church was a comforting and nurturing influence to him and his family, and he tolerated the few things he disagreed with in favor of keeping the fellowship with other members and the guidance and inspiration he received.

It's very "possible" that the frenzy over Wright is overblown hyperbole only kept alive by those who HAVE NEVER BEEN IN FAVOR OF OBAMA'S CANDIDACY in the first place. Like you.

You are blown away by my insight into the subtle nuances of opinion, eh? I know, I know. It's a gift.

Here's another "possibility"...
#3
The church was a comforting and nurturing influence to him and his family, and he tolerated the few things he disagreed with in favor of keeping the fellowship with other members and the guidance and inspiration he received.

A survey from the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, conducted March 20-24, found that while most voters were offended by Mr. Wright's remarks, their negative views didn't diminish support for Mr. Obama.

A majority of his supporters as well as those of his Democratic opponent, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, along with one-third of Republicans viewed his reaction to the Wright scandal as favorable. [..]

"I anticipated that this was going to have more of a negative impact on the Democratic electorate," Mr. Keeter said. "Would it take some of the bloom off of that rose? The answer appears to be no."

The polling data, however, exposed key racial gaps. While 58 percent of white voters said they were personally offended by Mr. Wright's sermons, just 29 percent of black voters said they were upset by his remarks.

Ticomaya wrote:

blatham wrote:

Possibly finn was morally outraged by the sexuality he references here. Sounds like he was. And it seems as if tico was as well.

Someone -- ostensibly a preacher -- delivering a sermon in church, ought not emulate anyone "ridin dirty." I understand your liberal thinking on the subject won't allow you to find it repugnant, but you are beyond help. Nobody should be looking at you as their moral compass.

Freedom of belief and freedom of worship. These concepts are, and ought to be, limited and defined such that they never violate Tico's notion (or Tico's denomination's notion) of proper and correct religious behavior and observance. We will now turn to page 58 in the hymnal..."His Light is White and Beckons We Bigots".

Heres another thought. He may agree completely with the Rev. Wright but didn't think it would come back to haunt him

Heres another thought. He may agree completely with the Rev. Wright but didn't think it would come back to haunt him because like most of the posters here if you point out he attended this church for 20 years you are deemed a racist.

dlowan wrote:

Finn dAbuzz wrote:

snood wrote:

Advocate wrote:

The right's sliming machine is up to full speed.

Just as the right painted John Kerry as an unpatriotic villain against deserter Bush in 2004, it uses Obama's virtues against him.

Obama delivers a message of reconciliation and forgiveness! Guy must be a hater! Goes to church for 20 years! What kind of Christian is that? Spends his career helping the poor and then runs for president on a message of unity and love for country? Dude clearly despises America!

Up is down, right is wrong, bad is good. Welcome to conservative heaven.

Two, two, two silly posts in one !

First of all, do you really believe that it was the GOP or conservatives who are responsible for the Pastor Disaster? Sean Hannity, among others, were talking about the Wright connection for months before it got traction. How did it get traction? ABC - that bastion of the right-wing media, digs up the dirty videos.

Secondly, who, right now, stands to benefit most from debunking the Obama mythos? John McCain or Hillary Clinton?

Thirdly, and finally, the issue here is not whether or not Obama has projected an image which all Americans should embrace but whether or not that image is genuine or a political construct.

Nice try though --- your guy shows a flaw and you blame it on conservatives.

I don't know who it was that "gave the thing traction". Who do you think was behind it?

Clinton of course

The conservatives most certainly stand to gain, as denigrating both leading democrat candidates is most likely to help McCain. I assume you think the Clinton camp was behind it? She also stands to gain in the short term.

She has no long term if she doesn't win in the short term.
Since I find all American mainstream tv outlets to the right of centre your ABC comment is meaningless to me. I assume you think it to be a left outlet and that was the point of your comment?

That says more about your position from the center than it does about the positions of mainstream media in America, but yes ABC is, objectively, considered a left of center outlet as Fox is, objectively, considered a right of center outlet

Thirdly, do you genuinely think the Wright thing means Obama himself is of the same beliefs as Wright? Truly??? Do you have any actual evidence of that?

No, but Obama has left sensible observers to arrive at only two conclusions and one of them is just that. As for your triple "?" incredulity, please spare us. How many times have left-wingers made unsubstantiated, outrageous declarations about American conservatives?

snood wrote:

Here's another "possibility"...
#3
The church was a comforting and nurturing influence to him and his family, and he tolerated the few things he disagreed with in favor of keeping the fellowship with other members and the guidance and inspiration he received.

There you go again with your common sense..

OCCOM BILL wrote:

dlowan wrote:

PS I have no idea what riding dirty is, except I assume it to be some sort of moral or sexual pejorative term?

Slang for carrying drugs in your car. It was a popular song's title last year.

That's also true, bill, but clearly not the main referent in this portion of Wright's sermon.

I don't know, dlowan. If Obama wins in the general, he's apt to get a second term. If McCain wins, he just might be a bit too long in the tooth to go for another four, making McCain Clinton's choice should she lose the nomination.

That's a thought that just popped into my head, and may not occur to her. I wouldn't be surprised if she's capable of acting on such a thought if she thinks of it.