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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
McTag
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 02:06 pm
The Iraqi peoples (I say that deliberately, there seems to be no Iraqi "nation") have bitter folk memories of Turkish occupation, and they fear and hate the Turks very much.
Also, it is no secret that Turkey has territorial ambitions in northern Iraq.
So, how is this going to help in Iraq? I fear it will be counter to the aims of producing peace and stability out of this sorry mess.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 02:08 pm
Faulty math there, steve ... 358 + 183 = 541 votes cast.

183/541 = 33.8% against vs 66.2% for. A 2-to-1 margin is a 2-to-1 margin, any way you spin it.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 02:12 pm
Don't forget the Poles, Walter. And Japan has signed on to send a sizeable contingent "by the end of the year". The US may not have UN help, and largely is shouldering the burden itself, but it certainly is not without international help.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 02:15 pm
McT, if, as is probable, the Turkish troops are deployed elsewhere than in Kurdish areas, there likely will be little real backlash, Iraqi or Turkish.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 02:25 pm
And I'm still wondering, what happened to this:
Quote:
Relations were damaged further by the July 4 detention of 11 Turkish soldiers in northern Iraq by U.S. troops, an incident that Mr. Gul yesterday called "unfortunate" and "not acceptable." The soldiers were released after fierce Turkish protests.
source: Envoy denies talk of Iraq troops for business pacts
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 02:27 pm
Mr. Hinteler-Many many thanks to you. You have reminded me of what I had forgotten. I guess I have been reading too much of the New York Times, the Washington Post and the Nation Magazine.

Your listing of the Ukranian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Romanian, Latvian, Slovakian, Latvian, Danish, Dutch, Australian and Spanish troops in Iraq would sound as if the effort were a real Multi-National effort.

And those above in addition to the British, Polish and US troops!!!!

Wonderful.

Perhaps, the addition of FIVE TO TEN THOUSAND Turkish troops ( in the West and North-NOT AMONG THE KURDS- will be the beginning of a great many other troops from other nations.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 02:31 pm
Quote:
Turkish Parliament OKs Troops for Iraq
By LOUIS MEIXLER
Associated Press Writer


ANKARA, Turkey (AP)--Parliament voted overwhelmingly Tuesday to give the government permission to send Turkish peacekeepers to Iraq, but members of Iraq's interim council opposed the move, a sign of the problems Washington faces as it tries to assemble a peacekeeping force.

The United States has been pressing Turkey for months to send what would be the first major Muslim contingent of peacekeepers, a deployment that would enhance the credibility of the American-led force in Iraq by demonstrating Muslim support.

Turkey's parliament voted 358-183 to allow the government to dispatch troops, a move top officials said would improve ties with Washington and help give Turkey a say in the future of Iraq.

``An Iraq that is in peace, that is on good terms with its neighbors, an Iraq that is stable is in Turkey's interests,'' Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul said.

In Washington, White House press secretary Scott McClellan applauded the Turkish vote, saying: ``We welcome that decision and we will be working with Turkish officials on the details of their decision.''

The motion gives the government the power to send troops, but provides no details as to when, where or how many soldiers would be deployed. Those matters are expected to be worked out in talks with Washington that could take weeks or even months.

``The decision that came out of parliament is not one that will be executed immediately, this instant,'' Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said. ``Time will decide. The process will depend on developments.''

The 15-member U.S.-appointed Governing Council of Iraq met at about the same time as the Turkish parliament.

``After long deliberations we reached consensus on issuing a statement opposing the arrival of Turkish troops,'' said Mahmoud Othman, a Kurdish member of the council. ``The council already has said it does not want other foreign troops in the country.''

He said, however, that the release of the statement was delayed for a time Tuesday, apparently due to pressure from the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority. The council is likely to defer to the United States on issues involving security.

Gul dismissed the Iraqi council's action.

``Members with Kurdish origins thought that way, but in the end they decided that it wouldn't be right,'' he said when asked about the statement.

But Gul also seemed to address some of their concerns.

``Turkey has no secret designs over Iraq,'' he added. ``We won't be going there to prolong the occupation, on the contrary to shorten it.''

Council members have repeatedly said that they would prefer if peacekeepers are not sent from neighboring countries.

The Turkish Ottoman Empire ruled today's Iraq for about 400 years until World War I. For some 15 years, Turkey fought Turkish Kurdish rebels who now have bases in the Kurdish areas of northern Iraq, a fight that killed 37,000 people.

Turkey fears that Kurds living in an autonomous area of northern Iraq could declare independence, which might provoke Turkish Kurdish rebels.

Turkish officials have emphasized that any deployment would aim at ending instability in Iraq, chaos that Turks fear could spread in the region.

``Without a doubt this (possible deployment) shouldn't be thought of just as a military force. It will include aid and services for the Iraqi people,'' Gul said.

Washington has asked Turkey to contribute some 10,000 soldiers and officials have said any soldiers are most likely to be deployed in the Sunni Muslim areas of central Iraq, where hostility toward the U.S. forces is the highest.

The Bush administration has made a worldwide call for money and troops to help rebuild Iraq. The United States has 130,000 troops in Iraq, and other countries have more than 20,000, including around 70 from the mostly Muslim nation of Albania.

The United States hopes that having a major Muslim nation in its coalition in Iraq will counter the image among many Arabs that the U.S.-led administration is a Christian occupation of a Muslim nation.

The Turkish lawmakers' vote was a major victory for the government. In March, after months of talks with Washington, the government asked parliament to let U.S. troops in for the Iraq war. Lawmakers rejected that motion despite strong support from the government, sparking tensions with the United States.

Washington agreed to lend Turkey $8.5 billion to support its economy, but has made clear that the loan hinges on Turkey's ``cooperation in Iraq.''

Tuesday's vote is likely to boost the government's credibility as it negotiates with Washington. A majority of Turks oppose sending troops and the government is expected to act cautiously before sending any soldiers.

``The vote has strengthened our government's hand,'' said Murat Mercan, the deputy chairman of the ruling Justice and Development Party.


AP-NY-10-07-03 1603EDT
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 02:34 pm
Quote:
... In a related development, the Japan Times newspaper in Tokyo reported yesterday that Japan will dispatch an advance unit of troops to Iraq as early as December to support the rehabilitation of the country.
Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi will outline the plan when President Bush visits Tokyo on Oct. 17.
The advance unit of 100 personnel will be sent to southern Iraq because the area is relatively secure. It will make preparations for the full deployment of Japanese troops.

http://washingtontimes.com/world/20031006-091716-3709r.htm
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 02:42 pm
And the Japanese too???
Wonderful, Mr. Timberlandko.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 02:51 pm
just curious but how much more will the US have to go into debt to pay for the assistance from those gracious allies? seems like with the friends we do have supporting our Iraq invasion, we might go broke, not to mention breaking an arm slapping ourselves on the back for what a great job we are doing. ah well, not to worry we will saddle our grandchildren with that debt.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 03:02 pm
thanks Timber

You certainly know arithmetics. Laughing
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 03:07 pm
Math isn't much open to opinion, Steve :wink:
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 03:14 pm
I think Mr. Dyslexia may have a point.

Perhaps he knows that as a percentage of GDP, the debt held by the public was the highest at the end of World War II( the debt was 109% of the GDP)

My grandfather said the same thing you are saying Mr. Dyslexia and he was a wise man.

However, to everyone's surprise, the debt held by the public as a percentage of GDP fell to just 24 percent by 1974.

How did this miracle happen??

We kept piling up debt from 1945 to 1974, as everyone knows, but the economy grew faster than the debt accumulated.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 03:18 pm
By gum, it's another grand coalition of freedom loving peoples (with coincidentally pregnant bank accounts).
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 03:20 pm
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
thanks Timber

You certainly know arithmetics. Laughing


You have something with your bones, timber? Hope you get well soon!

(Or is that something else ... aristiderism? ... logometritis? ...athrisitis?
Never mind. What were you talking about?)
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 03:22 pm
dyslexia wrote:
just curious but how much more will the US have to go into debt to pay for the assistance from those gracious allies? seems like with the friends we do have supporting our Iraq invasion, we might go broke, not to mention breaking an arm slapping ourselves on the back for what a great job we are doing. ah well, not to worry we will saddle our grandchildren with that debt.


Dys, ssshhhhhhhhhhh ...... he gave them shares in Arbusto Energy

Think they won't be pissed!!

MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 03:35 pm
Quote:
Math isn't much open to opinion, Steve


You know that's just what I remember my bank manager saying :wink:

....on the other hand
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 03:44 pm
I think I heard the US was going to provide Turkey with a 8.5 billion "loan." Wink
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 03:47 pm
Italgato, It's not very practical to look at past history to predict what will happen to present and future national debt. One major difference is the dramatic change in the world's economy. What was true after WWII doesn't compare to our current or future in economic terms.
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 04:39 pm
Cicerone Imposter- OK let's not look at past history.

Let's look at Economics.

If the GDP over a number of years is strong and the Spending is muted( NOT COMPLETELY REDUCED OF COURSE), the ratio of the debt to the GDP will lessen.

The example was only that- an example.

Now, if the GDP goes up an average of 4% in the eighteen years ( on average)_ (That is not impossible). Our GDP in 2021 will be around 22 Trillion dollars.

The ratio of the national debt to the GDP will, of course, depend on the deficits accrued in the coming years. Those deficits will largely depend on the expenditures APPROVED BY THE CONGRESS OF THE UNITED STATES WHO ARE ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE.
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