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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 05:27 pm
Itagato, The problem inherent in our government, whether it's national, state, or local, they overspend, and do not save for a rainy day. That's problem number one. Problem number two is the fact that it's impossible to predict the future of our economy. Just these two reasons make it problematic to see how our national debt will effect future years. ** When our government provides us with economic statistics of our growth at a time when unemployment keeps increasing, the future to pay down the national debt becomes less and less. What has happened during the past several years is that with the stock market downturn, more people are investing to buy homes rather than spend it on consumer goods. The sales tax base goes down, and with it goivernment services to the most needy in our society. Many social services and benefits are being cut back at all levels of our government, but the national debt keeps increasing. Unless we see substantial job growth, there is no hope that our eocnomy will sustain any kind of growth that is meaningful. Production growth is fine, but without more jobs, the number of consumers and spending decreases, and that's the basis of our Gross Domestic Product.
0 Replies
 
Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 05:36 pm
You are correct, CIcerone Imposter- It is impossible to predict the future of our economy. That is why jermaids like those from gelisgesti moaning about how much will the US have to go into debt are useless.

You said it-
"It is impossible to predict the future or our economy"

I agree with that!!!

I really don't know whether the GDP will go up by four or five percent a year.

Neither do you.

I really don't know whether there will be many more jobs available in five, ten or fifteen years.

Neither do you.

I really don't know whether the consumer will keep spendin.
Neither do you.

Given that it is useless to predict, then, of course, there is nothing to worry about.

Correct???
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 06:01 pm
"I" don't have much to worry about, because I'm retired, and "think" we have enough retirement savings to hold us over 'comfortably' during our retirement. I'm not in the unemployment class, but we still pay some taxes, because my wife still works, and our social security benefits are taxed. However, in Silicon Valley, the sales tax base has been decreasing for the past three years, and we do not see any hope of a change for the next four or five years - and maybe longer. Our county services have been reducing budgets for the past several years, and many are reducing staff every year. Some departments are cutting their budgets by fifteen to twenty percent. Medicaid has also been cutting back on services. From my vantage point, the hoopla of government statistics on economic growth means very little to our communities in our area. That we are unable to predict GDP growth or whether there will be more jobs in the near future, or whether consumers will continue to spend is the 64 thousand dollar question. I still worry for our children.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 08:08 pm
Heart Attack for Arafat?

Quote:
Arafat has suffered heart attack, admits aide
Officials tried to hide condition of president threatened by Israel
Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
Wednesday October 8, 2003
The Guardian


Yasser Arafat has suffered a mild heart attack but the Palestinian leadership has sought to keep his health problems secret for fear it will "create panic".
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 08:12 pm
One problem lies in the question of who would replace him, if anyone,and how much chaos would ensue as the disparate factions who had been united in opposing Arafat suddenly turned their efforts toward the Israelis!
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 08:32 pm
I would find that less likely than an open and violent power srtuggle among the radical Palestinian factions, which well could work to Israel's advantage. There doesn't seem to be much play yet on the story, but it bears watching.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 08:41 pm
timberlandko wrote:
I would find that less likely than an open and violent power srtuggle among the radical Palestinian factions, which well could work to Israel's advantage. There doesn't seem to be much play yet on the story, but it bears watching.

I guess I wasn't clear above. I anticipate what you do, but with escalation also in the suicide bombing campaign(s) against the Israelis.
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Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 08:47 pm
I'm bad for not reading back--but was the recent UN dance noted? Did you see the strong line we took on forcing a repudiation of Syria, as they tried to steamroll that Resolution against Israel? And, we got some decent company on our side of the Resolution.

Bush practically laid out his Roadmap to Israel being more aggressive in their retaliations, at least to me... That was a pretty interesting snapshot of the UN.... Watching and waiting... Wonder if it gave Arafat palpitations... :wink:
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 08:57 pm
Well...we know that BUshy-Poo II and his group want that river'o'bluurd! Say Halleylooyah! Shoot..them there Isrealites is s'possed to start armygeddin'! We's jest gon' support 'em fer all they's worth! After all...If English was good enuff fer Jesus and his ma, missus Christ...its good enuff fer me...etc....
Rolling Eyes
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Oct, 2003 09:11 pm
All hell will break loose....the power struggle will be fierce. Much damage to Israelis.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 05:54 am
Italgato, you wrote

Quote:
Given that it is useless to predict, then, of course, there is nothing to worry about

Laughing Laughing

thats a great, did you come up with that yourself? Only kidding, its just that I've heard of the Keynesian school of economics, in fact here is a good quote from the great man himself

Quote:
"I do not know which makes a man more conservative--to know nothing but the present, or nothing but the past."



and the Monetarist school,


but your quote sounds like its from that obscure Austrian economist Herr Ostrich.
0 Replies
 
Sofia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 06:24 am
hobitbob wrote:
Well...we know that BUshy-Poo II and his group want that river'o'bluurd! Say Halleylooyah! Shoot..them there Isrealites is s'possed to start armygeddin'! We's jest gon' support 'em fer all they's worth! After all...If English was good enuff fer Jesus and his ma, missus Christ...its good enuff fer me...etc....
Rolling Eyes

It takes a lot of nerve to call an emergency meeting of the UN to complain someone wrecked your terrorist training camp....
Suck it, Syria. Razz
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 06:38 am
Syrian govt. says it was a civilian area

Quote:
villagers nearby side the camp was once used by Palestinian militants but was abandoned more than a decade ago
0 Replies
 
wolf
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 06:52 am
A voice of truth -- a beacon of light amid the daily lies. Scott Ritter:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/cta/progs/03/hardtalk/ritter06oct.ram
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 07:13 am
WMD's ....none found to date!!!!!!!!!
OIL ...... cant swing a dead cat without hitting an oil well!!

Reason for war?

July 19, 2003
Cheney's Oil Maps
Can the Real Reason for War be This Crass?

By MANO SINGHAM

Now that the official case for attacking Iraq made by the US and British governments has started to unravel, the question of the real reason for unleashing this death and destruction has become a hot topic of conversation again.

During the run-up to the invasion on Iraq, while speaking at teach-ins and other forums and taking part in other anti-war activities, I was somewhat skeptical of those who argued that the war was simply about getting hold of Iraqi oil for American oil companies. I cringed a little at the slogans and placards that said "No blood for oil!" , "No war for oil!", etc., and disagreed with those that the attack was due to a simple quid pro quo between the administration and its oil company cronies. While I found the administration's case for war to be unbelievable, the 'war for oil' thesis seemed to me to be a far too simplistic approach to global politics.

I fancied my self to be a much more sophisticated geo-strategic analyst. Of course, the fact that Iraq had the world's second largest reserves could not be coincidental and definitely played a role in the war plans. But I thought it more likely that broader geopolitical concerns were more dominant, such as showing the world that the US had the power to enforce its will anywhere, and to establish a long-term and secure strategic base in the middle east from which to ensure dominance of the region. To the extent that oil played a role, I thought that purpose of the war was not mainly to divert Iraqi oil revenues to US companies but instead to ensure control over the oil flow to the rest of the world so that economic rivals such as Europe and Japan, whose economies were dependent on middle east oil, would be forced to be subservient to US global interests and pressure.

The thought that the war was actually about making money for individuals and corporations in the short term did not seem to me to be credible. That was too petty and crass.

That was why I was stunned to read the press release put out by the public interest group Judicial Watch on July 17, 2003. This organization, along with the Sierra Club, had argued that both the membership of the Energy Task Force chaired by Vice-President Cheney and the proceedings of its meetings should be made public and had sought the information under the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) since April 19, 2001. The Vice President had vigorously opposed this opening up of its activities and so a lawsuit was filed. On March 5, 2002 the US District Judge ordered the government to produce the documents, which was finally done by the Commerce Department just recently.

The Judicial Watch press release states that these released documents "contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as 2 charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and "Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts." The documents, which are dated March 2001, are available on the Internet at: www.JudicialWatch.org."

The press release continues: "The Saudi Arabian and United Arab Emirates (UAE) documents likewise feature a map of each country's oilfields, pipelines, refineries and tanker terminals. There are supporting charts with details of the major oil and gas development projects in each country that provide information on the projects, costs, capacity, oil company and status or completion date."

This foreign policy involvement is a somewhat surprising turn of events. The original FOIA case was initiated (before 9/11 and before the ratcheting up of the attack on Iraq) because of more domestic concerns, specifically suspicions that the membership of the Energy Task Force may have included people such as Ken Lay of Enron Corporation who may have been in a position to exercise undue influence over government energy policy at the expense of the public interest.

Now, other news items come to my mind, all pointing in the direction of Cheney. Although generally keeping a low profile in his frequent stays at his hideout, Cheney has been one of the most adamant proponents of attacking Iraq and hyping its threat. He has made some of the most authoritative statements that Iraq already had weapons of mass destruction, saying things like "Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction." (August 26, 2002) and "And we believe he has, in fact, reconstituted nuclear weapons." (March 16, 2003), the latter statement made just three days before the invasion.

It is also Cheney who reportedly had the most involvement in the fraud involving Iraqi uranium purchase from Niger, reportedly initiating the sending of Ambassador Wilson to that country to investigate. It is also Cheney who is reportedly the driving force behind the President's foreign policy and serves as his main strategist and mentor.

So perhaps my friends in the antiwar movement were right all along. Perhaps we have reached such a nadir that foreign policy (and even wars) can be made, and people sent to certain death, for such crass reasons. Perhaps it is time to put the Vice-President under much closer scrutiny.

Mano Singham is a physicist and educator at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio. He can be reached at: [email protected]

http://www.judicialwatch.org/



http://www.counterpunch.org/singham07192003.html Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 07:28 am
Thanks for drawing my attention to the BBC interview with Scott Ritter, Wolf.

You are absolutely right, Ritter is a beacon of light amidst the fog of lies.

Anyone who is interested in Iraq MUST see this interview.
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 08:00 am
Scott Ritter - a beacon of light? Well, I will put aside my assumptions and give it a good go.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 08:03 am
And thanks to Geli too for the article from Counterpunch. These two items define the issue and for me lead to a conclusion. Scott Ritter describes beyond a shadow of a doubt how the pretext for war was bogus. The war was illegal and the occupation continues to be illegal. So why would the US and Britain embark on such a war? Counterpunch provides the answer.

The legal justification for an attack on Iraq was WMD. The moral justification was to get rid of Saddam. But the real reason was simply oil.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 08:06 am
And what did you think of what Scott Ritter said Sumac?
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sumac
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Oct, 2003 08:20 am
Couldn't listen to it. I don't have a Real One Player and the link insisted that I order one, but I can't. I don't have a credit card. I thought that they had a free version.
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