The UN, US and Iraq IV

Yeah, Walter; felicitations to you and yours on Reunification Day. Indeed the world is a better place for The Wall having come down, with all that entailed.

I rather suspect, to the dismay of many, the Iraq Matter will come about in a manner propitious to the Iraqi People, to the credit of The US, to the detriment of International Terrorism, and in the interest of both regional and global peace and prosperity. There are those who disagree. In my anticipation, I draw comfort from the demonstrated record of those who disagree. Whatever else the rhetoric-spouting, label-appending, hysteria-prone negativists have to their credit, successful prescience has been notably absent. There is much to be said for consistency.

The STATEMENT issued yesterday by David Kay clearly lays out a callous, deeply institutionalized, chilling, Iraqi pattern of behavior. That the Unclassified statement so pointedly reveals continued Iraqi perfidy, extending well into the Post Saddam period, begs the question, "Why did it take 12 years and 17 Resolutions to bring these monsters to task?" I have no doubt, however, that many will read not the statement (as it is long and detailed), but will blithely accept what is said about it by the spinmeisters of negatavism. I have no doubt those who so far consistently have been proven wrong will maintain continued consistency. There are those who lament German Reunuification, too.

THE DAVID KAY REPORT

Listening to most of the media reports on David Kay's report to congress yesterday you would think that there was absolutely nothing to any of those reports about Saddam's weapons of mass destruction. Some reports do manage to mention that Kay reports that Saddam was concealing weapons programs from inspectors and that the evidence shows a clear intent to manufacture these weapons.

Kay said: "We have found substantial evidence of an intent of senior-level Iraqi officials, including Saddam, to continue production at some future point in time of weapons of mass destruction."

So .. what do we know? We know that Saddam had these weapons. He had them, and he used them. We also know that he ended the inspection program in 1998. We know that when inspections resumed in 2002 he made efforts to hide his program from inspectors. And we know that there were plans to continue the production of these weapons at some point in the future.

Let's try to draw a parallel here. Let's talk about Ramsey Yusef. We knew that Yusef used explosives in a 1993 attack on the World Trade Centers, just as we knew that Saddam had used his weapons on Kurds. We know that Ramsey evaded capture just as we know Saddam evaded inspections. Ramsey was finally captured and is cooling his heals in a Colorado federal penitentiary. Saddam was ousted and is now cooling his heals in a tent somewhere in the desert. Now ... let's carry this comparison one step further. Authorities know that Ramsey Yusef had plans to build some bombs to blow up commercial airliners, just as we know that Saddam had plans to manufacture more chemical and biological weapons. Authorities found copious evidence of Yusef's plans to make those bombs, but the bombs themselves were never found. So ... were we wrong to capture and jail Ramsey Yusef? After all, we've never actually found those bombs, have we? Maybe Yusef should be let go. Maybe we should return him to his terrorist friends. Maybe Clinton officials should be made to answer for their failure to ever find Ramsey Yusef's bombs. That must mean that he never had any in the first place, right?

While I'm on a roll ... let's talk counterfeiting. We have a counterfeiter passing off phony $100 bills. Police raid his home. There they find a printing press. They find the paper. They find the inks. They find the engraved plates. But ... they don't find any actual counterfeit $100 bills. Do they let him go? Ted Kennedy would say yes. And what do you say?

Why, timber. I am surprised at your comment. It would seem that some of us who were against the war but who did not indulge in hysteria were indeed possessed of prescience. What we saw -- our prescience -- is today's reality. If your hope and vision actually come true someday, we will be glad (nay, ecstatic) to give you credit for having predicted it. I can think of nothing that would gladden my heart more than to see your hopes become reality.

One thing I note is that we still do not know: What happened to the known, catalogued, and as yet unaccounted weapons, materiel, and capabilities that were the very point of "The Inspections"?

Well, after the election in Bavaria [obviously they do this], when the conservatives there got a comfortable 2/3 majority, they can do so easily now :wink:

Kara, I don't deny there are objectors not given to hysteria and hyperbole. I count you squarely among such, and respect you the more for it. I also have little use for those who failed to recognize that winning the peace would be far more onerous, and peril-frought, a task than winning the war. I have said as much many times, before, during, and since the war. In general, I'm not big on unrealistic expectations, whether from Pandora or Pollyanna.

Well, and I want to know what happened to the hundred places known to the US-administration and UK-government in the first days of the war as places for hidden weapons of mass destruction.

Shh...Walter, don't remind them that their heroes "knew" exactly where everything was. It makes them irritable.

it strikes me as a bit odd that the neo-cons are so determined to find the WoMD for, other than proof of their convictions, I would think the entire world would rest easier knowing that there did not exist any WoMD in Iraq at the onset of the invasion.

I'm glad they haven't found any and hope they don't. I would be relieved to know there weren't any ready to use WMD's there, eventhough the future plans for some are evident, we know that now and that's good enough for me.

I don't understand why the left is so happy that WMD's are yet to be found, they should be happy that we removed someone who would gladly make them and use them, we now know that for sure. The Bush bashing continues, why?

Doesn't make me irritable at all ... I have no difficulty accepting that errors of Intel, particularly remote, third-hand Intel, are a given. I note too, that, as mentioned yesterday in Kay's statement, that many known weapons storage and dispersal sites remain to be investigated, that it was Iraqi practice to conceal prohibited munitions among conventional munitions, and that much remains to be determined. Again, I am struck by the clamor that a few months has been far more than enough time to resolve questions which have persisted over more than a decade. What is known is that there was cause for much concern, and that the price of continued inaction would certainly have been calamitous.

The left isn't "happy" that no WMD were found. Quite the opposite, in fact. Finding WMD would mean that this invasion wasn't merely about Georgie-Poo II and his little friends flexing their muscles and that those who have died (on both sides) might not have done so in vain. It would mean that this was not just a "corporate welfare" measure meant to enrich the buddies'o' the administration by destroying a country that now has to be rebuilt. It would mean that the US and all of her inhabitants have not been party to an exteremly evil act. Destroying a nation just because we can isn't really the wonderful thing many on the far right (and I am not including Timber , Lola, and X in this camp) think it to be!

Think for a moment on the alternatives to the 'neo-con' belief that WMDs will be found...
Saddam complied, and willingly destroyed his expensive, prized chemical and biological weapons, and scrapped his production programs. Though he could have remained in power by showing proof of this to inspectors, he decided not to. He created roadblocks for the inspectors, giving the appearance he had something to hide, and threatened the lives of his scientists...just because.

I think this scenario is much less believable than that of the 'neo-cons'.

Walter quoted Colin Powell






You have to admit he looks pretty foolish now. And funnily enough I think he knew he was making a fool of himself when he delivered his presentation. Especially when he put on the screen transcripts of NSA intercepts "Hey Abdul the big man says hide the Large Consignment of Special Dates. "You mean the WMD we are pretending not to have, and which I don't have?. "Thats right, but dont mention the dates, the Americans are coming so hide them and forget where you hid them in case we want to dig them up later"OK Heil Saddam. Heil Saddam!!

OK I might be paraphrasing somewhat here, but it would be most interesting now to have a replay of the Colin Powell show, live at the UN.

walter

Thanks very kindly. That piece looks well worth reading...I've saved for later.

Well, there you have it, right there. He not only doesn't think about why he does "things," he also doesn't seem to be at all embarrassed by it. He seems to think it's something to be proud of.

But I must admit, I feel sympathetic with GW about his language problems. Although, I wonder if he's ever had any help with it. Or if he ever tried to use the help offered. But I have some of the same difficulties.

Still, his numerous mistakes are funny, I admit. I'm wiping my eyes.......I'm laughing so hard.

Lola

Do think he might play for the sympathy vote next time?

"I'm an idiot and proud!"

Anyone ever been on a 'snipe' hunt? As a teenager my favorite Summer activity was 'snipe' hunting. This activity requires two participants, a male and a female, a medium size bag to hold the captured snipes, and a nice warm blanket to rest on after calling snipe ....... I preferred an experienced sniper partner for all too obvious reasons

Description of a snipe:
Can't help you there as I have never seen one ...... but I am sure they exist as there were a lot of people trying to catch one, the warm summer meadows were full of them.

I read somewhere that in Iraq there is a similar phenomenon occurring, only over there they hunt WoMD's ...... as with the snipe no one has ever seen one and neither can they describe them.

Hmmmmmmmm

I read most of the report. I agree it says a lot more than "we looked hard in difficult circumstances but found nothing".

But equally there is nothing in it that could possibly justify the September 2002 document published by the British Government which prompted the headline in the London Evening Standard "45 MINUTES FROM ATTACK". Nor indeed Colin Powell's embarrassing 5th Feb 03 presentation to the UN.

I have no doubt Saddam would have produced WMD if he had been left alone. I have equally no doubt that his actual capabilities were known to US/UK governments as being constrained, and that they exaggerated the threat in order to justify an invasion which was primarily for other reasons.