0
   

The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2003 08:38 pm
Lola said:

Quote:
Too much force creates bullies and criminals like Saddam, Osama Bin Laden, etc. Our response to 9/11 in Afganistan, I think was defendable. Our allies certainly agreed. But the war to colonize Iraq, ....was ill advised. It will only create more violence. There is clear evidence of this now with the situation worsening.


I think that North Korea's and Iran's attitudes toward their countries' development of nuclear weapons is a direct result of our strike on Iraq. They are clearly thinking in terms of their own self-preservation, having seen what happened to Iraq who was unable to defend itself. What more logical move than to develop and create an arsenal that might deter or at least delay a Superpower? They can claim peaceful uses of nuclear energy and plan and ponder where they might go from there. We were the ones who cranked it up. They just went to school on us.
0 Replies
 
Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2003 08:41 pm
Mr. Hinteler is fond of quoting Ortega. I think I know more about Ortega Y Gasset than he does.

Here is a quote from Ortega which fits some of these threads precisely.

From:
"The Revolt of the Masses"

"The characterist of the hour is that the commonplace mind, knowing itself to be commonplace, has the assurance to proclaim the rights of the commonplace and to impose them whereever it will"
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2003 08:46 pm
My classification for service here was 5F. In the event of war, I was to be rendered for water content.
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2003 08:48 pm
the problem with mediocrity is it never recognizes itself.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2003 08:56 pm
Blatham ..... Fremen or Sardaukar?
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2003 10:03 pm
Yeah, Dys, but mediocrity affords a sorta numbing sameness ... and never aspires to rise above itself. It should prolly get high marks for consistancy, anyway.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2003 10:06 pm
George Bush is nothing if not consistent.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2003 10:17 pm
He is that.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 12:06 am
Here's some Bushism consistencies. I know you'll enjoy them. If you want to see more, this is only half of the email I received today. Wink+
*****************************
Classic Bushisms
Words of wisdom from the mouth of the 43rd President of the United States


"Oftentimes, we live in a processed world -- you know, people focus on the process and not results."
-- (speaking on the Middle East peace process)
Source: Public Papers of the Presidents, "Interview With Print
Journalists," June 2, 2003

"It's important for [the United Nations'] words to mean what they say, and as we head into the 21st century, Mark, when it comes to our security, we really don't need anybody's permission."
-- (during a press conference in 2003)
Source: Federal Document Clearing House, "President George Bush Discusses
Iraq in National Press Conference," March 6, 2003

"Columbia carried in its payroll classroom experiments from some of our
students in America."
Source: The Washington Post, "With Edwards, White House Shows First-Strike
Capability," Dana Milbank, Feb. 11, 2003

"Should any Iraqi officer or soldier receive an order from Saddam Hussein ... don't follow that order. Because if you choose to do so, when Iraq is liberated, you will be treated, tried and persecuted as a war criminal."
Source: Federal Document Clearing House, "Taking Action to Strengthen Small Business Remarks by the President on the Economy," Jan. 22, 2003

"The law I sign today directs new funds and new focus to the task of
collecting vital intelligence on terrorist threats and on weapons of mass
production."
Source: Federal Document Clearing House, "President Signs 911 Commission Bill," Nov. 27, 2002

"Corporate malfeance [sic] has had an effect on our economy and we need to do something about it."
Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "George W. Bush Participates in Rally
at Oakland County Airport," Oct. 14, 2002

"Speaking about barbaric regimes, we must deal with probably one of the
most -- not probably -- one of the most real threats we face, and that is
the idea of a barbaric regime teaming up with a terrorist network and
providing weapons of mass destruction to hold the United States and our
allies and our friends blackmail."
Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "George W. Bush Participates in
Alexander for Senate Luncheon," Sept. 17, 2002

"A free, peaceful Zimbabwe has got the capacity to deliver a lot of goods
and services which are needed on this continent in order to help aleve
suffering."
-- (making a plug for "Aleve" pain reliever in speaking about alleviating
suffering in Africa)
Source: The White House, "President Bush Discusses U.S.-Africa Partnership from South Africa, Press Availability with President Bush and President Mbeki of South Africa," July 9, 2003

"I used the expression 'ride herd.' I don't know if anybody understood the
meaning. It's a little informal in diplomatic terms. I said, we're going to
put a guy on the ground to ride herd on the process. See them all
scratching their heads."
-- (realizing few people understand him when he speaks)
Source: New York Times, "The President's Trip, In the President's Words: 'A Mutual Desire to Work Toward the Vision," June 5, 2003

"We've had a great weekend here in the land of the enchanted."
-- (referring to New Mexico, "The Land of Enchantment")
Source: Federal Document Clearinghouse, "George W. Bush Delivers Remarks on Jobs and Growth in Albuquerque," May 12, 2003

"These people don't have tanks. They don't have ships. They hide in caves. They send suiciders out."
Source: Federal News Service, "Remarks by President George W. Bush At
Welcome Rally," Nov. 1, 2002

"A lame duck session, for people who don't know what that means, it means the Senate is coming and the House is coming back between now and Christmas and they've got a few days to get some big things done."
Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "President Bush Holds Press Conference,
Presidential Hall, Dwight D. Eisenhower Executive Office Building," Nov. 7,
2002

"We hold dear what our Declaration of Independence says, that all have got uninalienable rights, endowed by a Creator."
Source: The New York Times, "Reporter's Notebook; Skipping Borders,
Tripping Diction," David E. Sanger, May 28, 2002

"The other issue regarding health care is whether or not health care is
affordable and available. And one reason it's not in certain communities is
because there is (sic) too many lawsuits."
Source: White House, "President Discusses Tax Relief in Minnesota: Remarks by the President on the Economy," June 19, 2003

"The proposal we've proposed will save him nearly $2,400 every year."
-- (in another display of the depth and breadth of his language skills)
Source: Federal Document Clearinghouse, "President Bush Speaks to the Tax Relief Coalition, U.S. Chamber of Commerce," May 6, 2003

"Maybe between the time I left Camp David and here I'll learn more."
-- (speaking to reporters after returning from Camp David)
Source: Public Papers of the Presidents, "Remarks on Returning From Camp David, Maryland, and an Exchange with Reporters," March 23, 2003

"What is life choices about?"
-- (speaking to student athletes)
Source: Federal Document Clearing House, "President Welcomes NCAA Champs," Feb. 24, 2003

"The more money they have in their more pockets -- in their pockets, the
more likely it is that somebody will find work."
Source: Federal Document Clearing House, "George W. Bush Delivers Remarks to the GOP Resort from the Greenbriar Resort," Feb. 9, 2003

"One year ago today, the time for excuse-making has come to an end."
Source: Federal News Service, "Remarks by President George W. Bush on Anniversary of No Child Left Behind Act," Jan. 8, 2003

"And out of the evil done to America is going to come a more peaceful
world, and a more better America..."
Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "George W. Bush Participates in Welcome Ceremony," Oct. 22, 2002

"Some communities, you say, "Hey, American dream," and they go, "What does that mean?"
Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "George W. Bush Participates in
Manchester, New Hampshire Welcome," Oct. 5, 2002

"There is no second-rate children in Arizona. There's no second- rate
children in America."
Source: FDCH Political Transcripts, "George W. Bush Delivers Remarks at
Salmon for Governor and Renzi for Congress Fund-raiser," Sept. 27, 2002

"What is your ambitions?"
-- (speaking at the Parkview Arts and Science Magnet School)
Source: Federal News Service, "Remarks by President George W. Bush at a Back-to-School Event," Aug. 29, 2002

"We will be steadfast and strong in our desire to make the world more free."
Source: Federal News Service, "Remarks by President George W. Bush at
'Simon for Governor' Luncheon," Aug. 23, 2002

"When one of us suffer, all of us suffers."
-- (addressing the Pennsylvania coal miners)
Source: The Nation, "W. and the Coal Miners: Photo-op Cover for Anti-worker Policies," David Corn, Aug. 6, 2002

"You teach a child to read, and he or her will be able to pass a literacy
test."
Source: United Press International, "Bush Proposes Increase in Education
Funds," Mark Kukis, Feb. 21, 2001

REPORTER: "[The California recall is] the biggest political story in the
country. Is it hard to go in there and say nothing about it?"
GEORGE W. BUSH: "It is the biggest political story in the country? That's
interesting. That says a lot. That speaks volumes."
REPORTER: "You don't agree?"
GEORGE W. BUSH: "It's up to -- I don't get to decide the biggest political
story. You decide the biggest political story. But I find it interesting
that that is the biggest political story in the country, as you just said."
REPORTER: "You don't think it should be?"
GEORGE W. BUSH: "Oh, I think there's maybe other political stories. Isn't
there, like, a presidential race coming up? Maybe that says something. It
speaks volumes, if you know what I mean."
-- (sharing his insights on the 2004 election, Aug. 13, 2003)
Source: Source: PBS Online News Hour, "California Certifies 135 Candidates in Recall Election," Aug. 14, 2003.

"We need to thin our forests in America."
-- (on the evil of forests, Aug. 11, 2003)
Source: The Arizona Republic, "In Arizona, Bush Touts His Idea to Thin
Forests," Aug. 12, 2003.

"We're expediting the administrative appeals process, so that disputes over projects are resolved quickly. In other words, not everybody agrees with thinning, there will objections. But we want those objections to be heard, of course -- every citizen needs to hear a voice."
-- (hearing voices in Summerhaven, Arizona)
Source: The White House, "President Bush Promotes Healthy Forests in
Arizona," Aug. 11, 2003

"I said you were a man of peace. I want you to know I took immense crap for that."
-- (speaking to Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon)
Source: Washington Post, "Bush Sticks to the Broad Strokes," Glenn Kessler, June 3, 2003

"I'm also not very analytical. You know I don't spend a lot of time
thinking about myself, about why I do things."
-- (reassuring us that the wartime president of the most powerful nation
on earth does not think too much)
Source: Federal Document Clearing House, "Roundtable Interview of the
President by White House Press Pool," June 4, 2003

"I've got very good relations with President Mubarak and Crown Prince
Abdullah and the King of Jordan, Gulf Coast countries."
-- (confusing the Gulf Coast with the Persian Gulf)
Source: Public Papers of the Presidents, "Interview With Print
Journalists," June 2, 2003

"I am the master of low expectations."
Source: Agence France Presse, "Bush Says Middle East Summit 'Met
Expectations'," June 4, 2003

"We ended the rule of one of history's worst tyrants, and in doing so we
not only freed the American people, we made our own people more secure."
-- (on regime change in the United States)
Source: Federal Document Clearinghouse, "President George W. Bush and Australian Prime Minister John Howard Hold Joint Media Availability," May 3, 2003

"It will take time to restore chaos and order -- but we -- order out of chaos."
-- (speaking to reporters about the situation in Iraq)
Source: Federal Document Clearing House, "President George W. Bush Delivers Remarks Regarding POWS," April 13, 2003

"And, most importantly, Alma Powell, secretary of Colin Powell, is with us."
-- (introducing Alma Powell, wife of Secretary of State Colin Powell)
Source: Federal News Service, "Remarks by President George W. Bush on First Anniversary of the USA Freedom Corps," Jan. 30, 2003

"The war on terror involves Saddam Hussein because of the nature of Saddam Hussein, the history of Saddam Hussein and his willingness to terrorize himself."
Source: The Washington Post, "With Edwards, White House Shows First-Strike Capability," Dana Milbank, Feb. 11, 2003
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 01:23 am
Quote:
Mr Kay's report comes as Congress debates President George W Bush's request for $87bn for spending on Iraq and Afghanistan.

One element of that budget is $600m to pay for further searches for evidence that Saddam Hussein did possess weapons of mass destruction.


I mean, when we would act so in our normal, everyday life ... we hadn't only lost our jobs, but certainly were asked to see the doctor, if we were doing such a long time.

Laura Rozen gives some ideas about he theory behind neocon self-deception in Washington Monthly (HERE!)
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 05:12 am
Thanks Walter, that was a really good article, a must read I would suggest.

Quote:
Were the neocons fooling themselves? Or were they aware of the thinness of the evidence but willing to use it deceitfully to convince the public--and perhaps the president himself--to support the invasion? The neocons' harshest critics believe the latter. They note, for instance, that Shulsky's Special Plans office was borne out of the same Pentagon department where Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Douglas Feith once set up the equally mysterious "Office of Strategic Influence," to send out disinformation to the enemy. That enterprise was quickly dismantled once lawmakers got wind of the fact that such an office could also--perhaps inadvertently --disseminate disinformation to the American public.


and

Quote:
Critics also point to passages in Strauss's own writings which they say countenance deception, even against the public, if committed by the select few who are wise enough to truly understand the national interest. Whether Strauss himself actually advocated this view is debatable; Shulsky and Schmitt don't make the argument in their essay. But they do credit their mentor with an acceptance of the inevitability of deception that seems, in retrospect, rather suggestive. "Strauss's view certainly alerts one to the possibility that political life may be closely linked to deception," the authors write. "Indeed, it suggests that deception is the norm in political life, and the hope, to say nothing of the expectation, of establishing a politics that can dispense with it is the exception."


--------------

Lola, thanks for your comments on my previous post. Re reading it I am actually rather pleased that amongst all the rubbish that spews forth from this keyboard, there might be the odd small nuggett of ... er well not quite sure, I'll leave that to others.

But to continue the analogy - of the industralised world and America in particular as a fossil fuel junkie - could it explain the necessity of the US committing criminal acts to feed the habit?

-------------

Kara, I never really answered your point about

Quote:
I think it means that there has to be a better way of securing our energy future than by colonizing oil-rich countries.


You are absolutely right. There has to be, and there is. All that's lacking is the political will to tackle it.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 05:56 am
Steve (as 41oo) wrote:
You are absolutely right. There has to be, and there is. All that's lacking is the political will to tackle it.


... and our will and - nearly even more important - the industry's will - to accept and to support these ways!
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 06:02 am
Just by chance (ie given to me by the Head of History) I came across "The Mesopotamian Campaign" part of a WW1 series for British school students (age 13-14 yrs), published in 1976.

Some fascinating extracts

Quote:
...Turkey, officially but not very securely, ruled over vast territories in the area usually referred to as the middle east. At the eastern end of this empire lay the land with which Britain was so concerned. Early this century a seemingly endless supply of oil had been discovered in southern Persia and a pipeline had been laid to Abadan at the head of the Persian Gulf to carry the oil to the port from where it was shipped to Britain. The British navy, with its new oil-driven ships, depended on this source of power, and when war on Turkey was declared, some means had to be found of protecting it. Britain had not enough spare soldiers to defend 150 miles of pipeline, so the following plan was adopted: an expedition should be sent to Mesopotamia to capture the town of Basra. This would free the Arabs from their Turkish masters, and so make them welcome the British and help them to protect the vital pipeline.

[picture] Arab workmen laying the original oil pipeline,1909.

(Arabs labouring over steel pipe about 0.3m dia. Two British engineers in white suits and pith helmets supervising)


-------------------------------------------------


There is an Arab proverb which tells how when Allah made Hell he did not find it bad enough, so he made Mesopotamia - and added flies.The British troops named it 'Mespot.'The troops in Mesopotamia must have often wondered how much truth there was in the proverb, for such a land and climate can hardly be found elsewhere on earth.

-------------------------------------------------

In capturing Basra, the British had succeeded in defeating the Turks, but they hadn't captured the sympathy of the local Arabs. The Arabs were in fact giving all their support to the Turks. Turkish and German agents had been trying for some time to stir up the Arabs to take up arms in a 'Jehad' or 'Holy War' in which the Muslims would unite against the invading Christians.


---------------------------------------------------

In march 1917 Baghdad itself fell to the British. Maude advanced beyond Baghdad to consolidate his position. Attempts were made to win over the sympathy of the Arabs with vague promises of independence from Turkey and help to improve their farming techniques. On the eve of the Armistice, in November 1918, General Marshall gained a decisive victory over the Turks at Mosul.




I can't help feeling some of this is familiar. Sad
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 06:08 am
This is not Rummy's world.



The Changing Face of Occupation - What Numbers Can Not Tell

Occupation Watch's Eman Ahmed Khammas on the First Six Months of the Occupation
by Eman Ahmed Khammas, International Occupation Watch Center

September 25th, 2003
On April 10, 2003, the morning after Saddam's statue fell in one of Baghdad's central squares, an American soldier, chewing gum and blowing bubbles, sat atop his tank near the square and watched a young Iraqi man pushing a carriage full of medical equipment, computers, and an air-conditioner, all looted from the nearby al Sadoon hospital. Another soldier was standing on the roadside preventing people from approaching the square, holding up both hands and repeating "Go back, go back." There were no Iraqis in the square behind him, only American tanks and vehicles. This very small scene tells a lot about the presence of the occupation forces in Iraq from the very beginning. They do not care about Iraq and Iraqis, they are afraid, and they only care about their own security.

However, after six months of war and occupation an essential change in the small scene described above has most likely occurred. The soldier on the tank will no longer expose himself to danger in the streets. Instead he has pulled back into hidden corners and surrounded himself with high sandbags and barbed wire. Baghdad's main streets are now filled with ugly barracks, checkpoints, and high walls at the entrance to public buildings, blocking the traffic and creating many problems. Entering these buildings now takes longer and is more difficult.

The other soldier will no longer offer bare hands to prevent people from passing nor will he shout in a monotone "go back." Instead he stands grim-faced, aiming his gun at passing Iraqis and using it unhesitatingly whenever someone fails to understand the message. Today there are hundreds of casualties in mistaken, random, and indiscriminate shootings; many of them are women and children. The most flagrant was the killing of 10 Iraqi policemen by American fire a week ago; this was the third time that Americans killed Iraqi policemen.

Baghdad today is another city. Everything has changed -- in the streets, buildings and squares that are void of women and almost deserted after 6 p.m., at the money-changing tables lining the main streets, among the homeless children or families squatting public buildings, with the camera- and notebook-laden foreigners looking for the next story, and at the fuel queues snaking out of the petrol stations. However, the most significant change is on Iraqi faces that articulate mounting bewilderment and shock.

The last six months in Baghdad have been too long, an age. For a nation that has been patient for decades and has undergone three wars, 13 years of sanctions, political repression, and continual outside threats, 6 months have been too long to wait for relief, to wait for positive changes.

Given the casualties of war, the mass deaths inflicted by bombing, the chaos of looting, the immolation of public buildings, the shock of the rapid fall of the state, people now understand the real face of the occupation, its true meaning: negligence, lies, arrogance and humiliation. In no time Iraqis have discovered that all the promises have led only to more empty promises, projected into some unforeseeable future.

The problems of daily life, exacerbated by the existence of the occupying forces, lay heavily on the Iraqi people: insecurity; the absence of effective Iraqi authority; unemployment and the fear of the future it brings; continuous shootings; the stories of indiscriminate firing upon civilians; thousands of haphazard arrests for unknown reasons, with detainees taken to unknown places for undefined periods of time. These new conditions have been added onto the existing realities of a deeply divided and impoverished Iraq, devastated by decades of sanctions and war.

In the midst of the current devastation, accurate statistics and numbers are illusive because the occupying forces deliberately attempt to conceal negative facts wherever possible and significant events or trends are not systematically documented.

Iraq Body Count, a volunteer group of British and US academics and researchers, said that 7798 Iraqis were killed during the war (2356 in Baghdad alone), and 20,000 injured (8000 in Baghdad). There are no statistics on the number of civilian casualties in Baghdad since May 1, 2003, the day President Bush declared the official end of the war. But the director of Baghdad's forensic hospital, Dr. Faiq, said that, of the bodies brought to the morgue, the average number of people killed daily is 20-30. In July, for example, 720 people were killed, 470 of them shot. This was a 47% increase from July 2002. Guardian Journalist Peter Beaumont, writing on September 14, 2003 put the shooting-related deaths at 400/month.

The occupying authorities, officially known as The Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA), bear the responsibility for this dramatic rise in murders, even if some of the killings were not by their forces. According to the 4th Geneva Convention, these authorities are fully responsible for the protection of the civilian population.

Although the first order of the occupying authorities was to provide for local authority, insecurity is the most important problem facing Iraqis. This insecurity is partially due to the absence of real local authority, the inefficiency of the new Iraqi police who lack arms, the occupiers' negligence, terrifying midnight raids on Iraqis, withholding of logistical information and authority, unwillingness to jeopardize their soldiers' lives, and refusal to apply Iraqi law to the occupying countries' citizens.

Lately, many new kinds of crimes, like daylight killings, armed robberies, kidnappings, rapes, and car hijackings, have appeared. Mr. Abdul-Razaq Al-Ani, judge of New Baghdad court, says that in the space of two weeks there were 50 killings, 176 car thefts, 4 robberies accompanied by killings, and 2 kidnappings for ransom. The occupying authorities deal with the issue by focusing on the need for their soldiers' security. When Colin Powell was asked about security during a September 14 press conference in Baghdad, he spoke only of the personal security of US soldiers. To him and other occupiers, security means eliminating armed resistance and nothing else.

Another pressing problem facing Iraqis is the occupation forces' power of arbitrary arrest. Often those arrested are unaware as to why they have been arrested. Their families know neither where their loved ones are nor how long they will be held. They do not even know what to do. There are approximately 30 Iraqi prisons according to Amnesty International. Baghdad Airport, Bucca in Basrah, and Tesfiraht are Iraq's three largest official prison camps. The official detainee population stands at 10,000 according to the occupation authorities. The CPA lists do not necessarily represent all detainees, because these lists are infrequent and tens of people are arrested daily. From former prisoners, stories of torture, bad treatment, and the denial of human rights are prevalent.

The devastated economic situation creates the ideal conditions for crime to flourish. The World Food Program report of June 6, 2003 stated that 1/5 (one fifth) of Iraqis suffer chronic poverty. The Iraqi Union of the Unemployed says there are 10 million (approximately 60% of the working-age population) unemployed in Iraq now.

This year's war has added misery to the already immiserated classes. In Al-Thawra (now Al-Sadr) district of 3 million inhabitants, mostly farmers who immigrated to the capital over the last 50 years, 4-5 families live in a house measuring an average of 200 square meters. Most of them are among the newly unemployed, widows, and disabled. The majority are ex-prisoners of war or ex-soldiers released from service because the Iraqi army was dissolved after the war. Many families are homeless or squatting in public, deserted buildings or schools. The schools squatted by families in deprived areas are inadequate buildings, basically large barracks, without any furniture. Eighteen families (120 individuals) with no running water and no private sanitation inhabit a school in section 37 of Al-Thawra. Section 76 practically floats over a sewage lake. Some families live in the garbage. These places became key centers of organized crime. The religious parties succeeded in reducing the number of thefts, but there are other uncontrolled crimes like the stealing of electric cables and the melting of these cable in open smelting areas, a process that emits black thick smoke and further contaminates the environment. From big diesel and gasoline tankers, people sell openly in the black market.

Given the lack of security, legitimate economic activity has been thwarted, prices have gone up, and gangs have been easily transformed into crime syndicates.

Added to all this and further complicating economic recovery is the absence of a national or even regional telecommunications system. For example, only three out of the nine districts in Baghdad have a working telephone system.

It is not difficult to identify all these problems, but is it really possible to convey the agony of being occupied?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 06:13 am
Walter wrote

Quote:
... and our will and - nearly even more important - the industry's will - to accept and to support these ways!


Indeed. So its never going to happen is it?
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 06:18 am
Well, things happen around the world, I never thought, they would happen, e.g. the German re-unification (12th anniversary and public holiday today).

So, this may happen as well (keeping my fingers crossed).
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 07:19 am
c.i. Laughing Laughing
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 07:22 am
Oh yes I forgot


Many Happy Returns on German Re-Unification Day. Does that include the Bavarians? Drunk

p.s your're right, good things do happen. I shouldn't be so pessimistic. And the re-unification of Germany was definitely a good thing.
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 07:35 am
Walter, thanks for the excellent article from the Washington Monthly.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Oct, 2003 07:37 am
So, on Unification day, is there subtle pressure on Bayern to secede? Wink
0 Replies
 
 

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