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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 05:03 pm
nimh wrote:
Jesus Christ, Gel Shocked


Sorry, thought it was funny .... guess not
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 05:48 pm
well, kinda - i mean, i grinned!
it just threw me off, thats all ...
thread's getting surreal

then again, nothing wrong with surrealism, i guess ...
(thats what you get when several of us get bored, i guess)
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 06:06 pm
I doubt if this wll be conducive to checking out on time. next June ... let alone win hearts and minds.

Quote:

Analysis: Iraqi CPA fires 28,000
UPI - Friday, November 21, 2003

Date: Friday, November 21, 2003 6:40:58 PM EST By RICHARD SALE, UPI Intelligence Correspondent

American's top man in Baghdad, L. Paul Bremer, last week fired 28,000 Iraqi teachers as political punishment for their former membership in the Saddam Hussein-dominated Baath Party, fueling anti-U.S. resistance on the ground,

administration officials have told United Press International.

A Central Command spokesman, speaking to UPI from Baghdad, acknowledged that the firings had taken place but said the figure of 28,000 "is too high."

He was unable, however, after two days, to supply UPI with a lower, revised total.

The Central Command spokesman attributed the firings to "tough, new anti-Baath Party measures" recently passed by the U.S.-created Iraqi Governing Council, dominated by Ahmed Chalabi, a favorite of administration hawks in the White House and Pentagon.

"It's a piece of real stupidity on the part of the neocons to try and equate the Baath Party with the Nazis," said former CIA official Larry Johnson. "You have to make a choice: Either you are going to deal with Iraqis who are capable of rebuilding and running the country or you're going to turn Iraq over to

those who can't."

Facing a spreading insurgency, this was "not the time to turn out into the street more recruits for the anti-U.S. insurgency," Johnson said.

"It's an incredible error," said former senior CIA official and Middle East expert Graham Fuller. "In Germany, after World War II, the de-nazification program was applied with almost surgical precision in order not to antagonize German public opinion. In the case of Iraq, ideologues don't seem to grasp the seriousness of their acts."

Administration officials told UPI that from the beginning of Bremer's arrival in Iraq, the Bush administration has consistently misplayed the issue of Iraq's former ruling Sunni group, most of whom were members of the Baath, but who are also the most able and knowledgeable administrators in the country. In addition, many able government employees joined the Baath Party not out of any special political sympathies, but simply to attain or retain their jobs.

"The anti-Baath edicts, all of which are ideological nonsense, have been an outright disaster," a State Department official said. "Whatever happened to politics as the art of the possible?"

"All we have done is to have alienated one of the most politically important portions of the Iraqi population," another administration official said.

According to several serving and former U.S. intelligence officials, the latest firings are only one of a series of what one State Department official called "disastrous misjudgments." He cites, as one of the first, how senior Pentagon officials, relying on Chalabi's advice, led the Bush administration to believe it

would inherit the Iraqi government bureaucracy virtually intact at the end of the war.

This same group ignored warnings from the internal CIA and State Department studies about looting and general lawlessness in the event of a U.S. victory, these sources said, speaking on condition of anonymity.

In a long editorial last Sunday, the New York Times said that the lack of U.S. preparation for a post-war Iraq was "most likely" due to the Defense Department and the president's security advisers (believing) in the assurance of Mr. Chalabi and other Iraqi exiles."

Another major and disastrous decision was Bremer's order, on arrival, to disband without pay the Iraqi military force of 400,000 men, several of these sources said.

A Pentagon critic of the administration said: "We spent a lot of money on psychological operations that urged the Iraqi army to remain out of the fight.

"They did, and what did we do? Rewarded them by throwing them out of work and denying them a living."

What deeply disturbed many U.S. Iraqi experts in the State Department and CIA was the fact the Iraqi army was a highly respected institution in Iraq, which Saddam Hussein did not trust and used other organizations like the Republican Guard to spy on.

But it was disbanded in an effort to sweep aside any viable internal leadership and to install "democrats" from Chalabi's Iraqi Governing Council, a half-dozen former U.S. diplomats and serving administration officials said.

"Disbanding the army only alienated the Iraq Sunnis, who could have been useful in restoring public services and getting the country up and running," a State Department official said.

Only 20 percent of the population Iraq's Sunnis are better educated, more experienced and more unified than the Shiite majority, he said. Since a U.S. victory would erode their position of dominance, they were very receptive to the argument that the U.S. government needed to utilize their expertise in order to ensure a smooth political transition.

This, of course, did not occur, the State Department official said.

Instead, under orders from Secretary of State Donald Rumsfeld, Bremer tried to get rid of former Baathists in the Iraqi government by removing the top six layers of bureaucracy, U.S. officials said. The decision was made on May 16.

One of its effects of this was to re-energize Islamic militant forces in the country, this official said, even though, "The Sunnis are a secular force, hostile to Iran and Shiite influences, not much given to promoting radical religious causes."

"All you were doing were pissing off people who were armed and had no place to go," a former senior CIA official said.

But with the Sunnis sidelined, the Shiite, who have strong links to Chalabi, gained in power even though leading Shiite religious parties such as SCIRI and al-Dawa closely connected to Iranian security services.

"I think Chalabi's group is permeated with Iranian influence," said former CIA counterterrorism chief Vince Cannistraro.

A Pentagon official pointed out that Lt. Gen. Jay Garner, Bremer's predecessor, had a much more "pragmatic" attitude. "Garner was a guy who was willing to deal with anyone who could get something done. If he was a Baath Party guy, fine. If he wasn't, fine. The point was could the guy do the job?"

British historian Tom Bower points out in his "The Pledge Betrayed," how the Allies were forced to abandon many features of their de-nazification programs in Germany because of the hardships they caused. Even by February 1945, three months before the end of the war, American and British forces were abandoning their reluctance to employ Nazis because of the inefficiencies of such policies. "Armies rely on water, electricity and other civilian services," Bower said. "The temporary employment of Nazis had to be allowed."

The Americans even decided, "The administrative machinery of dissolved Nazi organizations may be used when necessary to provide certain essential functions such as relief, health and sanitation, with de-nazified personnel and facilities," Bower said.

He concluded: "Any offer to help organize the chaos was gratefully accepted."

But in today's Iraq, in spite of steadily escalating attacks on U.S. forces, the desire of the IGC to enforce political correctness produced "incoherence, chaos and disorganization," one Pentagon official said.

Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld even moved to get rid of 16 of 20 State Department people because they were seen to be "Arabists" -- overly sympathetic to Iraqis, U.S. government officials said.

A former Garner team member was quoted in last week's Newsweek as saying the vetting process for Iraqis "got so bad that even doctors sent to restore medical services had to be anti-abortion" -- an article of faith in the Bush administration.

When Secretary of State Colin Powell protested directly to Rumsfeld, he ignored Powell, the Newsweek source said.

"We had no coherent plan or coordinated strategy for post-war Iraq," a former senior CIA official told UPI. Instead there were "rosy misassumptions, wishful thinking, ideological blindness."

There is some hope, at least in the case of Iraq's army.

Already there is a full Iraqi brigade, comprised of former Iraqi military men, working with the U.S. Fourth Infantry Division, with another brigade, quickly taking shape under its auspices, administration officials said.

With Chalabi continuing to have no internal popular Iraqi support, "The best thing we could do for Iraq's stability would be to reinstate the Iraqi army," a State Department official said.

--
Copyright 2003 by United Press International.
All rights reserved.


SOURCE
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 06:12 pm
Quote:
I'm surprised at your comment tartarin. I don't advocate the eradication of Muslims, but I would like to see the intellectual defeat of Islam. And Judaism. And Christianity, Cannibalism and all other organised religion.


Steve, there was a piece in today's NYTimes about C.S. Lewis, who died the same day as JFK but whose death went unmarked as the world mourned. Lewis wrote, in Reflections on the Psalms, "Of all bad men, religious bad men are the worst."
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 06:39 pm
Arrogance and Stupidity.
In this case they go hand in hand. The Neo cons and Right Wing Christians are the worste group of fascists that ever got control in the USA. Too bad a coup could not be done on these people that are destroying the USA.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 06:56 pm
Quote:

"The anti-Baath edicts, all of which are ideological nonsense, have been an outright disaster," a State Department official said. "Whatever happened to politics as the art of the possible?"

Impossible in an administration that values war more than peace.

Quote:
nly one of a series of what one State Department official called "disastrous misjudgments." He cites, as one of the first, how senior Pentagon officials, relying on Chalabi's advice

Everyone who figured this guy was bad news even before the war raise your hand please! (raises hand, stumbles in wind raised by many others raising their hands!)

Quote:
"All you were doing were pissing off people who were armed and had no place to go," a former senior CIA official said.

But, at least we provided armed opponents to the US forces, so George could say "Bring 'em on."

Quote:
A former Garner team member was quoted in last week's Newsweek as saying the vetting process for Iraqis "got so bad that even doctors sent to restore medical services had to be anti-abortion" -- an article of faith in the Bush administration.

Further proof that our appointed president and his advisors have no business running a country.

Quote:


"We had no coherent plan or coordinated strategy for post-war Iraq," a former senior CIA official told UPI. Instead there were "rosy misassumptions, wishful thinking, ideological blindness."

Let me guess. Since we are the "good guys," the Iraqis would obviously side with us. Thats how it happens in the movies, right?

Quote:
With Chalabi continuing to have no internal popular Iraqi support,

He is perfectly positioned to be the next US installed dictator.
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 07:04 pm
u.s. and iraq
geli quotes : "British historian Tom Bower points out in his "The Pledge Betrayed," how the Allies were forced to abandon many features of their de-nazification programs in Germany because of the hardships they caused. Even by February 1945, three months before the end of the war, American and British forces were abandoning their reluctance to employ Nazis because of the inefficiencies of such policies. "Armies rely on water, electricity and other civilian services," Bower said. "The temporary employment of Nazis had to be allowed." having lived through that period of time as a teenager, i well remember the DE-NAZIFICATION PROCESS. generally, members of the nazi party, government officials, police officers and others in this group of "suspects" were given a slap on the wrist unless they had committed some major crimes. but i also remember that many of the ordinary germans that had not joined nazi organisations or had been jailed for opposing the third reich were not happy at all with the lenient treatment given party officials etc. of course later it became quite clear that the allies were counting on these people in helping to form a bulwark against communism. as a matter of fact quite a number of senior officers later formed the backbone of the new german army. and it certainly was one of the reasons - though a minor one - why i decided to leave germany. hbg
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 07:13 pm
Quote:
A former Garner team member was quoted in last week's Newsweek as saying the vetting process for Iraqis "got so bad that even doctors sent to restore medical services had to be anti-abortion" -- an article of faith in the Bush administration.

This is so outrageous that Bush and Bremmer should be convicted of war crimes over this single issue.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 07:15 pm
That's understandable, hamburger. Does that mean you would recommend utilizing Baathist party members or not?
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 07:25 pm
Impossible.
It is not possible to charge GW with any crimes because GW has God on his side. GW gets his instructions straight from God. That superceeds any man made laws.

I keep wondering though. Is Jahawe, Allah, or other Gods the same one that is providing GW with instructions? It couldn't be the same one unless God is schizophrenic. There a few billion Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Shintoists and others out of that loop. If there is only one God then perhaps billions of people are not tuned in to GW's God.

It is a perplexing mystery, yes?
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 07:25 pm
Check this out,

A know-it-all website

http://www.namebase.org/
0 Replies
 
Kara
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 07:30 pm
Checkin it out....
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 07:40 pm
GW/ Osama bin Laden
The difference? Osama has more charisma.

If GW gets instructions straight from God I guess Allah must be a different God.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 08:09 pm
the u.s. and iraq
roger : i have to admit that i simply do not know enough about the whole situation in the middle-east to offer any advice to anyone(nobody would take it anyhow; at least now i can't be held responsible ...) ... of course, i still feel i like to put my two cents worth in. it's kind of interesting (not a good choice of words) to look at the dilemma of the kurds. i believe they fought saddam and were hoping for support from the allies, but what did they get ... i believe thet were gassed. when i look around the world i can see plenty of instances were people have rallied to throw out dictators and more often than not, the hoped for (and often promised) support by the "free" world never materialized. i think what it boils down to is that governments in the "free" world don't necessarily do what is right but what is convenient at the moment. have to admit, that's the way it's been throughout the history of the world and that's no doubt how it will continue. i should add, that i do find it interesting that the u.s. is developing fairly strong trade relations with vietnam now (the u.s. is even sending a warship flying the the flag of vietnam). i guess when it comes to trade (i.e. MONEY) principles can be shelved. don't we live in an interesting world? hbg
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 08:28 pm
G. Bush 19991
The overthrow of Saddam was stopped with the assistance of the USA. When the Sheeits were massing an overthrow the USA did nothing to help them. In fact, Saddam was assisted by the USA against the overthrow. The USA, Saudi Arabia and the West did not want Saddam overthrown. Why?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 08:37 pm
I don't know enough either, hamburger, but I was prepared to value your opinion based on it's similarity to what you have experienced.

I also believe the Kurds were either promised, or led to believe, that help would be forthcoming. I even have the suspicion that the same situation may have applied to the Hungarians in their attempted revolt in, was it 1954, though I was quite young at the time. I admit to being embarassed by events of this nature.

Funny you should mention the U.S. Navy in connection with Vietnam. I just finished a novel by Nelson Demille called UP Country. The US desire for a base to replace Subic Bay was essential to the plot. I recommend the book, by the way.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 08:37 pm
err...pist, that's "Shi'ites."
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 08:38 pm
Roger, Nelson DeMille is great! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 08:56 pm
Hbob, I thought that was a mushroom
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 09:02 pm
Thanks for the correction Bob.
I will endeavor to be more correct. :wink:
0 Replies
 
 

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