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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
perception
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 09:16 pm
Tartarin wrote:
Perc -- I remembered your interest in Wahhabism when I noticed the following article in the 12/1 Nation on "Egypt's Islamist Dilemma." Haven't done more than skim it, but here's a link in case you'd enjoy taking a look:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031201&s=smith

(Let me know if you can't get through -- I may be able to only because I'm a subscriber. Dunno. But I can copy and PM it to you if you can't...)


I'm not subscriber so yes I would like to have a copy thank you.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 09:18 pm
Gelisgesti wrote:
Hbob, I thought that was a mushroom

Shitake...Yummm!!!! Very Happy
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 10:02 pm
roger : the visit of the u.s. warship to vietnam was featured in GOOGLE news last week. here is a little tidbit i picked up in a u.s. business mag recently ; apparently the u.s. has sought to open up the vietnam to u.s. trade. a/c to the article the vietnamese gov't agreed and now has become the largest exporter of "catfish" to the u.s. - much to the displeasure of u.s. catfisch farmers ! and we have been wondering why the canadian stores are being flooded with u.s. catfish(perhaps re-exported) ? we do like catfish, so no complaints here ! another little item i picked up recently in a bus. mag. : it stated that vietnem has become the number two coffee-exporter in the world - and undercutting central- and south-american coffee producing countries greatly. go figure ! hbg.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 10:07 pm
Yeah. Stealing a phrase from the book I mentioned, people below a certain think Vietnam is a country; above that age, they think is is a war.

Hope that catfish is tariffed the same as your lumber. Actually, I wish they would just forget about tariffs between the countries. We're way off topic, though. I'll quit if you will.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 10:51 pm
EU takes firm stand ...

Quote:
http://www.portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/images/new_hed_story.gif
European study on anti-Semitism is scrapped
By Irene Zoech in Vienna
(Filed: 23/11/2003)



A study backed by the European Union on the rise of anti-Semitism has been shelved after officials decided that its findings were "too controversial".

The 112-page survey, commissioned by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia based in Austria, found that many anti-Semitic incidents were carried out by Muslim and pro-Palestinian groups.

The research was ordered in response to fears that anti-Semitism was on the rise across Europe - and apparently confirmed the truth of the claims. However, the centre - which is the EU's official racism watchdog - was unnerved by its results.

A spokesman for the watchdog refused to comment yesterday, but according to authoritative reports officials admitted a "political decision" was taken not to publish it partly because of fears that it would increase hostility towards Muslims.


against reality.
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 11:01 pm
While The Arab Street begins to acknowledge reality ...

Quote:
BBC: Press urges unity in terror fight

Newspapers in the Middle East are unanimous in their condemnation of Thursday's twin suicide attacks on British targets in Istanbul and call on the world to redouble its efforts against terrorism.

Many argue that the bombings will cause considerable damage to Muslims while an Iranian paper believes they will give the US further justification for its military presence in the region.

Another Iranian paper suspects that Turkey's cooperation with Israel may be the main reason for the carnage, while an Egyptian daily contends that Israel and the West have brought the recent attacks upon themselves because of their "unjust" policies in the region.

And an Algerian daily is surprised by what it sees as a U-turn in Arab attitudes towards terrorism.


in its own way.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 22 Nov, 2003 11:31 pm
On that topic ...

There was much ado a while ago about how an opinion poll supposedly showed that a majority of Europeans considered Israel to pose the "greatest danger to world peace".

You posted this article about that, for example, Timber (emphasis added):

timberlandko wrote:
OK, since facts, figures, and hard news are of less interest to some than opinion, here's a bit of opinion by way of answer to your question, Gel.
Quote:
As anti-Bush cries grow, 'how soon Europe forgets'

[..] To what is apparently a majority of polling respondents on the European continent, little democratic Israel is the world's most dangerous country, and George W. Bush its most dangerous man.

What is interesting here, to those capable of taking a longer view, is the spectacle of history repeating itself -- less in outward events, than in inward structure. As in the 1930s, leftists and pacifists on the streets of Europe directly advanced the triumphs of Nazism, so today the demonstrators work to advance the triumphs of Islamism [..]


I came across a slight, but nevertheless significant caveat to that news item, though.

You see, those Europeans who were polled weren't asked anything about who they thought posed the biggest threat to world peace. They were merely given a list of countries and asked which ones of them they considered a threat to world peace.

A higher percentage of respondents marked Israel as such than any other country. Thats still quite a remarkable thing, but something wholly different from what the hype about that news item posited.

See, to maintain that Israel poses the world's greatest danger to world peace is not just silly - the tilted standards that would imply suggest some hatefulness, too. But apparently, nobody did.

What happened was that a very high percentage of EU citizens considered Israel 'a threat to world peace' - period. And hell, I consider today's Israel a threat to world peace, too. The festering Palestine question and Sharon's bullheadedness about it is sowing the seeds of future terrorism in the ME. Not so unreasonable a statement, at all.

Ah ... journalism. Tough profession, huh.

-----------

{Oh - and I only just now picked up on the "leftists and pacifists on the streets of Europe directly advanc[ing] the triumphs of Nazism" thing. Thats scandalous. If it had said, "communists" - well, sure - way before the Molotov-Ribbentropp Pact they had their strategy of targeting all their fire at the "social-fascists" rather than standing side by side with the social-democrats against Hitler. But it says "leftists", general.
Considering that the pretty much only - and often suicidally brave - militant resistance to Nazism and Fascism in the early thirties came from social-democrats and socialists (and anarchists in Spain), and that it was the "mainstream" conservatives who helped Hitler into government, that's just way out of line.}
0 Replies
 
pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 12:16 am
Rehashing the causes of WW2.
Had the Allies stopped the Fascists in Spain WW2 may have been avoided.

Now the Emperialism of the US and UK are fueling the flames of the Jihad. If Israel made peace with Palastine and that situation settled down it would not stop the war between Islam and the West.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 03:10 am
timberlandko wrote:
EU takes firm stand ...
[...]
against reality.


Part of original quotation, timber didn't copy here, says as follows:
Quote:
[...]
Earlier this year Beate Winkler, the director of the EUMC, said that anti-Semitism was on the rise across Europe and was now happening "on a large scale" in France, Germany, Sweden and the Netherlands. The French president, Jacques Chirac, called a cabinet meeting last week to discuss attacks on synagogues and schools in France.

The anti-Semitism study is understood to have been presented to the watchdog's board, which includes representatives from each EU country as well as the European Commission, Parliament and the Council of Europe, before a decision not to publish it was taken.

Ms Winkler said that the study was rejected as it was considered as being unrepresentative because the period it covered - May and June 2002 - was too short to reach a full conclusion. Instead the EUMC will use it as part of another survey next year.

Dr Rita Koch, a prominent Jewish historian in Vienna, said that the refusal to publish the report was pushing political correctness to extremes. "This is an official body and it has no business covering up this report. If it wanted the report, it should be prepared to publish it. Behaving like this is like they are afraid of their own shadow."



And, according to the Jerusalem Post,
Quote:
The Vienna-based European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) decided in February not to publish the 112-page study after clashing with its authors over their conclusions.

When the researchers submitted their work in October 2002, the centre's senior staff and management board objected to their definition of anti-Semitism, which included some anti-Israel acts, and the focus on Muslim and pro-Palestinian perpetrators was judged inflammatory.



All these reports go back to a FT-article (registered website, therefore copied and pasted completely here):
Quote:
http://globalelements.ft.com/FTCOM/Wrapper/gen_logo_inside.gif

EU body shelves report on anti-semitism

By Bertrand Benoit in Berlin
Published: November 21 2003 21:10 | Last Updated: November 21 2003 21:10
http://news.ft.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobcol=urlimage&blobheader=image%2Fjpeg&blobkey=id&blobtable=Picture&blobwhere=1069132065899
The European Union's racism watchdog has shelved a report on anti-semitism because the study concluded Muslims and pro-Palestinian groups were behind many of the incidents it examined.

The Vienna-based European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC) decided in February not to publish the 112-page study, a copy of which was obtained by the Financial Times, after clashing with its authors over their conclusions.

The news comes amid growing fears that there is an upsurge of anti-semitism in European Union countries. Among many recent incidents, a Jewish school near Paris was firebombed last Saturday, the same day two Istanbul synagogues were devastated by suicide truck bombs that killed 25 and wounded 300.

Turkey, which hopes to join the EU, suffered again at the hands of what are believed to be al-Qaeda inspired terrorists on Thursday with truck bomb attacks on British targets.

Following a spate of incidents in early 2002, the EUMC commissioned a report from the Centre for Research on Anti-semitism at Berlin's Technical University.

When the researchers submitted their work in October last year, however, the centre's senior staff and management board objected to their definition of anti-semitism, which included some anti-Israel acts. The focus on Muslim and pro-Palestinian perpetrators, meanwhile, was judged inflammatory.

"There is a trend towards Muslim anti-semitism, while on the left there is mobilisation against Israel that is not always free of prejudice," said one person familiar with the report. "Merely saying the perpetrators are French, Belgian or Dutch does no justice to the full picture."

Some EUMC board members had also attacked part of the analysis ascribing anti-semitic motives to leftwing and anti-globalisation groups, this person said. "The decision not to publish was a political decision."

The board includes 18 members - one for each member state, the European Commission, Parliament, and the council of Europe - as well as 18 deputies. One deputy, who declined to be named, confirmed the directors had seen the study as biased.

In July, Robert Wexler, a US congressman, wrote to Javier Solana, the EU's foreign policy chief, demanding the release of the study.

Ole Espersen, law professor at Copenhagen University and board member for Denmark, said the study was "unsatisfactory" and that some members had felt anti-Islamic sentiment should be addressed too.

The EUMC, which was set in 1998, has published three reports on anti-Islamic attitudes in Europe since the September 11 attacks in the US.

Beate Winkler, a director, said the report had been rejected because the initial time scale included in the brief - covering the period between May and June 2002 - was later judged to be unrepresentative. "There was a problem with the definition [of anti-semitism] too. It was too complicated," she said.

This week, Silvan Sha lom, Israel's foreign minister, proposed a joint ministerial council to fight what Israel sees as a rise in European anti-semitism.

link
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 07:13 am
The charge of anti-Semitism is a very powerful indictment, because of the holocaust, and it's a bit like suggesting your Salem neighbor has been consorting with Satan.

But it has become a PR tool used by Israeli administrations and supporters of those administrations which functions as a particularly ugly ad hominem against anyone who questions government policy. The clear suggestion (commonly) is that if you speak out against an Israeli government policy, you therefore clearly seek the destruction of Israel and the death of jews. Even Israelis themselves who speak out (as in the recent case of the Israeli pilots) are tarred with this same ugliness. It is despicable in the extreme.

Of course, we ought to acknowledge that the same thing, though not so acute, occured here to many who spoke out against the Iraq policy or against Bush (dixie chicks, etc).
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 08:55 am
Its interesting to note that about 3 times as many folks turned out to protest fox hunting a few months ago than turned out in the latest anti-Bush push, and that both the rugby matches and Michael Jackson generated more column-inches of text in The British Press than did the demonstrations.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 09:20 am
Well, timber, there have been already two demonstrations with each more than 1 million protesters earlier this year .... about the time of the protests against hunting with dogs.

You've been to Britain the last days that you could witness this
Quote:
and that both the rugby matches and Michael Jackson generated more column-inches of text in The British Press than did the demonstrations.
?

Perhaps, you missed the date of the demonstration? (It was BEFORE 'Jackson' and the rugby match!)
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 10:23 am
THE big headline in one of today's papers:

Quote:
GROUND FARCE 1 Nov 23 2003


Queen's fury as Bush goons wreck garden

Exclusive By Terry O'Hanlon


THE Queen is furious with President George W. Bush after his state visit caused thousands of pounds of damage to her gardens at Buckingham Palace.

Royal officials are now in touch with the Queen's insurers and Prime Minister Tony Blair to find out who will pick up the massive repair bill. Palace staff said they had never seen the Queen so angry as when she saw how her perfectly-mantained lawns had been churned up after being turned into helipads with three giant H landing markings for the Bush visit.

The rotors of the President's Marine Force One helicopter and two support Black Hawks damaged trees and shrubs that had survived since Queen Victoria's reign.

And Bush's army of clod-hopping security service men trampled more precious and exotic plants.

The Queen's own flock of flamingoes, which security staff insisted should be moved in case they flew into the helicopter rotors, are thought to be so traumatised after being taken to a "place of safety" that they might never return home.

The historic fabric of the Palace was also damaged as high-tech links were fitted for the US leader and his entourage during his three-day stay with the Queen.

The Palace's head gardener, Mark Lane, was reported to be in tears when he saw the scale of the damage.

"The Queen has every right to feel insulted at the way she has been treated by Bush," said a Palace insider.

"The repairs will cost tens of thousands of pounds but the damage to historic and rare plants will be immense. They are still taking an inventory.

"The lawns are used for royal garden parties and are beautifully kept. But 30,000 visitors did not do as much damage as the Americans did in three days.

"Their security people and support staff tramped all over the place and left an absolute mess. It is particularly sad because the Queen Mother loved to wander in the garden just as the Queen and Prince Charles do now.

"Some of the roses, flowers and shrubs damaged are thought to be rare varieties named after members of the Royal Family and planted by the Queen Mother and Queen.

"Other Royals had their own favourite parts of the garden as children and some of those areas have been damaged."

The Queen's insurers have told her she is covered for statues, garden furniture and plants she personally owns, but the bill for repairing damage to the lawns and the structure of the Palace will probably have to be picked up by the Government.

The Americans made alterations to accommodate specialised equipment. The mass of gadgetry meant the Royals couldn't get a decent TV picture during the visit.


And, yes, rugby is on the front page :wink:
http://images.icnetwork.co.uk/upl/sunday_mirror/nov2003/3/4/000AC72D-7CE2-1FC0-B10D80BFB6FA0000.jpg
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 10:25 am
Doesn't alter the relative press coverage a bit, Walter, nor does it change the relative numbers of demonstrators in any of the instances cited. In fact, comparing the 10s of Thousands from last week against the 100's of Thousands, or aggregate Millions, who participated in the Anti-War, Anti-US, Anti-Bush demonstrations of last Winter/Early Spring is quite telling, IMHO. The issues "Legs" are growing feeble, now requiring the energetic support of Liberal Media to stave off total collapse.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and I'm not there. That's just how I see it, from reading the press and sampling the media from "Over There". I could be wrong. I doubt it though Mr. Green

I note Schroeder is still having domestic difficulties, too, but that's just an aside.
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 11:23 am
timberlandko wrote:
Doesn't alter the relative press coverage a bit, Walter, nor does it change the relative numbers of demonstrators in any of the instances cited. In fact, comparing the 10s of Thousands from last week against the 100's of Thousands, or aggregate Millions, who participated in the Anti-War, Anti-US, Anti-Bush demonstrations of last Winter/Early Spring is quite telling, IMHO. The issues "Legs" are growing feeble, now requiring the energetic support of Liberal Media to stave off total collapse.

Of course, that's just my opinion, and I'm not there. That's just how I see it, from reading the press and sampling the media from "Over There". I could be wrong. I doubt it though Mr. Green

I note Schroeder is still having domestic difficulties, too, but that's just an aside.


Timber, would you be up for considering that you may be consulting the wrong sources?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 11:28 am
timberlandko wrote:
[..] Walter, nor does it change the relative numbers of demonstrators in any of the instances cited. In fact, comparing the 10s of Thousands from last week against [etc] is quite telling, IMHO. The issues "Legs" are growing feeble, now requiring the energetic support of Liberal Media to stave off total collapse.


Actually ... How many people were there again?

- De Volkskrant here pointed out that it had been the biggest "working day" demonstration ever.

- The Independent: "Organisers of the demonstration against Mr Bush claimed that, at its height, 200,000 marched [..] At first, Scotland Yard insisted the numbers were considerably lower, between 30,000 and 45,000. As the day progressed, the police increased their count to 110,000."

- The Scotsman: "AN ESTIMATED 200,000 anti-war protesters descended on London yesterday to show their anger at George Bush's three-day visit."

- The Daily Telegraph: "The demonstration against President Bush's visit attracted between 100,000 and 200,000 protestors to central London yesterday."

- BBC: "Organisers claim 200,000 joined the demonstration, although police put the numbers closer to 100,000."

- The Guardian: "Despite between 110,000-200,000 people marching against the state visit, the first lady said she hardly saw any protesters, just some nice folks waving the stars and stripes"
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 11:32 am
Of course I would, Gel. My survey was thoroughly unscientific, the "Column Inches" assessment drawn only from looking through mainstream media websites' news articles (specifically excluding commentary/opinion/analysis ... just "The News"), and official police estimates of crowd sizes. Show me I was wrong.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 11:36 am
Ohmygod. The account of the trashing of the gardens is appalling. I don't care who does it. The arrogance is simply astounding. (And these were the guys who played that story about removing the "w's" from White House keyboards...
0 Replies
 
Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 11:40 am
This picture is proof that the numbers were in the hundreds of thousands

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:hhYG8TZDD6cC:www.harcourtschool.com/newsbreak/images/protest.jpg
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 23 Nov, 2003 11:47 am
Quote:
Scotland Yard officials estimated the crowd at 70,000 while demonstration leaders claimed twice that number. Either way, it was one of London's biggest turnouts for a weekday protest, although considerably less than the estimated 750,000 who came out here in February to oppose the war on a Saturday afternoon. Like that crowd in February, it was a varied group that reflected the fact that opposition to the Iraq war and to American policy has spread from its traditional home on the political left to many in the mainstream. There were young and old, 15-year-olds in school uniforms playing hooky for the afternoon, and elderly men and women navigating with canes and walking sticks.


Some seem disappointed the Peace Riots didn't pan out as had been hoped. Crowd sizes are notoriously difficult to estimate with precision, but I tend to go with police estimates, at least in democracies. Among other things, the police base their funding requests on that sort of stuff. Underestimating is not in their own interest, whereas overstating the case is precisely in the interest of disappointed organizers.
0 Replies
 
 

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