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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 09:46 pm
Italgato wrote:

By the way were you in Lybia with your mother and father or just a tourist?
Born there. Adopted by US parents. Father was a petroleum geologist. They had been in Libya for about ten years at the time. This was, of coursem before Q'uad'afi siezed power and nationalized the petroleum industry.
Back to the discussion topic. Would nationalization of teh petrol industry in Iraq better enable the petrodollars to go to the citizenry? Am I the only one who thinks nationalization of an oil industry actually defeats improving the lot of the peasantry? It worked for a short while in Saudi Arabia, but the Saudi economy is sliding downward. It seems to have done more harm than good in S. America.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 09:47 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
gels, Isn't GW jumping the gun a bit? Reinstating the draft in 2005 is a bit premature isn't it?

I don't see how the US can continue its imperialist exercise without conscription.
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Italgato
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 09:48 pm
You don't know George Bush, Cicerone. He is evil through and through. Some say he is not very smart. He isn't but just suppose the Devil controls him. Have you ever noticed that his ears are pointed???
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 09:51 pm
Brand X wrote:
Gel, in case you haven't noticed there is a war on terror that isn't going to be over soon, better to be prepared for what may come than sit idle. I know you don't like reality, too bad. I registered for the draft when I turned eighteen, that's how it goes sometimes.
Is that like the war on drugs, war on hunger, war on poverty, etc...? Do you really think "terrorism" can be eliminated? Terror is a tactic in suppoprt of an ideology. It is not an organized entity.
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 09:54 pm
With a pig's eyes that never look up, with a pig's snout that loves the muck, with a pig's brain that only knows the sty, and a pig's squeal that cries only when he's hurt, he sometimes opens his pig's mouth, tusked and ugly, and lets out the voice of god, railing at the whitewash that covers the manure about his habitat.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:00 pm
Brand X wrote:
Gel, in case you haven't noticed there is a war on terror that isn't going to be over soon, better to be prepared for what may come than sit idle. I know you don't like reality, too bad. I registered for the draft when I turned eighteen, that's how it goes sometimes.


The draft is fine, the service builds men out of boys, pays for an education that may otherwise be out of reach and instills good values.
I resent to the last fiber of my being one single life spent in changing the world into Bush's idea of democracy.

Bush lied kids died!!
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:00 pm
hobitbob wrote:
Brand X wrote:
Gel, in case you haven't noticed there is a war on terror that isn't going to be over soon, better to be prepared for what may come than sit idle. I know you don't like reality, too bad. I registered for the draft when I turned eighteen, that's how it goes sometimes.
Is that like the war on drugs, war on hunger, war on poverty, etc...? Do you really think "terrorism" can be eliminated? Terror is a tactic in suppoprt of an ideology. It is not an organized entity.


I don't think it can be totally eliminated, I believe it is organized, I don't think you sit idle to send the message we will accept an occasional bombing, as long as it only kills 5 to 3000 Americans.
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:04 pm
Brand X wrote:

I don't think it can be totally eliminated, I believe it is organized, I don't think you sit idle to send the message we will accept an occasional bombing, as long as it only kills 5 to 3000 Americans.

But at the same time a (US) casualty rate of 1-5 per day is "success?" Confused
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:12 pm
The Draft
A Senator from NY has been proposing that idea. Damn, forgot his name.

The draft will be needed if the military is going to be used to invade the Axis of Evil.

It will all be OK because the USA has God on it's side and the Commander In Chief gets his instructions straight from God.

Don't worry. Be happy.
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:24 pm
If GW is voted out of office in 2004, why would we need 1) the draft, 2) to invade the "axis of evil" countries?
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:31 pm
hobit and Gel(who is apparently getting plenty of fiber in his diet :wink: ), if we can stop all deaths from vehicle accidents, accidents in general, cigarette smoking, suicides, disease, murders, war, overdoses, etcetera, that would be a success. The fact that troops are being killed doesn't mean we aren't being successful, and it doesn't mean we are losing, it means we are in a deadly process.

One of the troops that returned from the Jessica Lynch 'company' was killed in an auto accident, death will always be among us. I find it completely irrational to try to stop it.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 10:48 pm
Death is death is hardly profound.

The glories of our church and state
Are shadows, not substantial things;
There is no armour against fate;
Death lays his icy hand on kings.

It's how you die and what you are willing to die for.. that counts
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 11:09 pm
Gel, War, faught by people who signed themselves up for the potentially hazardous duty, may or may not have accepted the fact they might die by signing that dotted line for sure. Thing is, you don't know if the troops, who have been killed, believed in their hearts that it was a just cause or not, and, whether they were willing to die for something they thought counted. You are trying to answer for them when you don't even know if there was a question.
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Gelisgesti
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Nov, 2003 11:23 pm
What luck for rulers that men do not think.
Adolf Hitler
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 04:06 am
Just watched Bush on channel 25 laying a wreath on the tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Westminster Abbey. Meanwhile channel 26 showing the smoking ruins of down town Istanbul. Death and destruction everywhere. Scenes adjacent in more ways than a channel number.
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the prince
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 04:31 am
I just spoke to my friends in Istanbul - thankfully, they and their families are okay. I am sad beyond words right now. Istanbul and Turkish people are such a lovely place/race.

Look what you have done to our world Mr Bush and Mr Blair Sad
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 04:36 am
brand X wrote

Quote:
Steve, it seems to me that you believe the soldiers are sent expected to be killed, but I posit that our military tries to supply the troops with training and tools they need to stay alive. And what about the concequences of the troops choices, it is a volunteer military, no one made them join a potentially deadly endeavor.



This is surely a bit naive BrandX. I agree commanders dont send troops into battle expecting them to be killed (unless they work for al Qaida). And of course they equip them as best they can, but the reality is that some will be killed, and commanders and the troops themselves know this when they send them. [Otherwise why do they set up field hospitals?]. Sure its a volunteer force these days, but then people join up for different reasons. I was talking with an old soldier friend of mine recently who believed it was his mission as a soldier to bring relief to the distressed, and he served most of his time with the British Army in Northern Ireland.

The point I was trying to make about the Prime Minister or President meeting families of the bereaved was that this must be excruciatingly difficult even if you have a perfectly clear conscience about why you gave those orders. It must be nearly impossible if you have feelings of remorse or guilt or even doubt. And I suggest that politicians who use military force not as a last resort, but as a mere extension of foreign policy, ought to feel guilty.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 05:09 am
nimh wrote
Quote:
someone here who actually had to read Pravda in the past - in the original Russian.


My esteem for you grows ever higher. Not only did your lot do for McBerties boys last night http://newsfromrussia.com/world/2003/11/20/51367.html (only fair they were cheering for France last Sunday, and will be passionate Aussies on Saturday), but you now tell me you speak Russian.

I tried to learn that language....with mixed results. The only adverts I could read at the Wales/Russia game were for vodka (and Rus-telekom...quite proud of that!).

As for mr italgato, just read the posts and laugh.

Quote:
Look what you have done to our world Mr Bush and Mr Blair


Indeed Gautam, let them LOOK. Let them PONDER. And let them THINK AGAIN.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 05:31 am
I hope people on this thread have read Jay Brookman. If not please read

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article2319.htm
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Brand X
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Nov, 2003 06:57 am
Gelisgesti wrote:
What luck for rulers that men do not think.
Adolf Hitler


I'll just throw out Adolf Hitler's name, because in my mind once I do that, it is the end all-be all to any argument, and it absolves me of any further thinking or reasoning beyond my narrow scope, because I am man therefor I do not think.

Gelisgeti
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