The UN, US and Iraq IV

Sofia, I hope this new draft resolution by the US is successful. Otherwise, we will continue to pay for this war in both our military and US tax dollars which is already costing tax payers one billion every week plus what Bremer and Rummy is asking for for the reconstruction and prosecution of the occupation. If this administration had listened to the world community "before" the US and UK started this war, we wouldn't be in this pickle now.

Lightwizard - can't argue with your facts. But, what I refer to is the part where a country gets invaded, stripped, enslaved, destroyed. We ha pieces of that, but not as a country. So much of Europe saw all of the above, and it is different.

Sofia, I disagree with you heartily. We were attacked on 9/11. I watched the towers get hit, watched them crumble, watched bodies flying out of windows - it was horrible. But, we were not the targets of a war. As a matter of fact, except for the area around the event, what else was affected? And by rights we should have gone after the Saudis immediately - we knew from the start that the major force was the Saudi part. Instead, we delared war on a country, and we are reaping what we sowed. Here is an article, reprinted from the Washington Post, that should scare you. because we have created a monster. We have turned Iraq into the birthplace of a nation of terrorists. And this is one message that was repeated over and over again by people who were experienced and knowledgeale in the field. But what we had was a bunch of amateurs with a macho attitude. And they sold you down the river. You will be paying for this for a long time.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/962871.asp?vts=090620032205

Afghanistan and Iraq were easy targets. Both had repressive regimes, and had earned the ire of the international community. Attacking the Kingdom would have had horrible repercussions. Had the US followed through in Afghanistan , I think they would have had far more success in gaining support for the Iraqi adventure. Instead, Bush and Co. have proved those in the region who saw the US as the great "enemy" to have been correct. We went in, we blew things up, we installed our puppets,and then we pretty much sat by and watched things fall apart further.

I think, too, that the new resolution points in the right direction.
But it does not take into account the main priority which is the transfer of political responsibility to an Iraqi government as quickly as possible.

That's more 'polically'.

From the legal point of view, I've some difficulties, how countries, who obkected the law for legal reasons, now can go ...
But obviously that's policy again.

I wish everyone could come to view the cogent reasoning given on this Post. Alas, the current Gallup Poll shows the misinformed and unthinking postures taken by the American Populace.

In the August 25thand 26th Gallup Poll 66% of the American people approve of President Bush's handling of terrorism.

Two things are painfully clear .... the planners of the Florida coup were not the planners of the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq and number two ..... polls don't mean diddly.

This is what the residents, and local police, told us had happened. Inside the apartment with Farah were her mother and a brother, Haroon, 13. As the soldiers started smashing doors, they began to kick in Farah's door with no warning. Panicking, and thinking that thieves were breaking into the apartment, Haroon grabbed a gun owned by his father and fired some shots to scare them off. The soldiers outside responded by shooting up the building and throwing grenades into Farah's apartment.

The randomness of that firing is revealed by a visit to the apartments. Windows are drilled with bullet holes; ceilings in kitchens and bedrooms and living areas are scarred where the rounds smashed in. Hodhbain Tohma was on the roof, fiddling with his new satellite dish to make it work, when the soldiers came. 'I heard the shooting first, then an explosion. Then I heard women screaming. I looked over the roof and saw a line of soldiers on the path firing weapons wildly towards the building as a helicopter arrived above us. The shooting all seemed to me to be on one side.'

Abdul Ali Hussein was in the apartment next door to Farah's when the shooting began. 'I was asleep when we heard the shooting, and then an explosion blew open my door and filled my apartment with smoke. I grabbed my family and took them to another room and covered them with my body.

'I went to see if anyone needed my help next door. I went into three rooms, saw Farah lying in the kitchen near the window. She was injured and burnt, but still alive. I ran to get cotton wrapping and bandages to try and treat her. We didn't have enough and so tore up a head-cloth to try and stop the bleeding. The soldier shouted at me: "Where are the fedayeen ?" They told me to leave her because she was dead.'

As we were talking, a weeping man in a head-cloth arrived - Qasam Hassan, the brother of the second fatality, Marwan. Qasam told us how Marwan died. 'When I heard the heavy shooting, I was in another apartment building visiting friends. My brother was worried, so he went out to look for me. He was not carrying any arms. He could not find me, and as he came back to the building the Americans shot him. He ran and fell behind the building and died. Among all of them they only had one translator. How could people know what was going on?'

What is most curious about this story is that, when I called the US military press office in Baghdad, it said it could find no record of the raid or of the deaths. It is curious because the police in Mahmudiya have told us how US military policemen delivered the bodies to their station the next morning; how the local commander had expressed his commiserations; how the same Iraqi police had complained that the new troops from the 82nd Airborne Division, who arrived fresh from the US last month, had apparently reversed the policy of the previous US unit in the town to take local police on raids.

It became less puzzling when I spoke to Nada Doumani, spokeswoman for the International Committee for the Red Cross, who confirmed what she has said before - that despite repeated requests from the Red Cross, it can neither get information nor figures on civilian deaths during raids.

Excellent compendium ........

BIG NEWS

This war on terrorism is bogus

Michael Meacher

ex British cabinet minister

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1036571,00.html

The term "asymetrical war" which Sofia uses above is one of those war room alienation phrases which leaks out of a defense bureaucracy now and then -- a term which attempts to cloak (in this case) the image of a huge nation humbled by seriously angry small groups. "Asymetry" makes it sound new and important (requiring new and more lucrative contracts with Lockheed for a whole new set of weapons) but in fact it diminishes Goliath, makes him look awkward and stupid and completely taken unawares when faced with David's intense effort and perfect aim. If you start to parse the phrase and the concept behind it, you kind of get an odd image of Rumsfeld's huge fist connecting with his own prominent jaw, dropping him to the floor, stars twinkling around his head.

This from the "Democratic primaries" thread - my reply follows (didnt want to post it where it didnt belong)

Heh. If Craven were here I'm sure he'd be able to point out the logical fallacy in your choice (like setting up a choice in which only one option can ever be right).

Thing is - all we know is:

a) we suspected he might still have had some WMD - the US government had proudly proclaimed, just a few years ago, that in the years since the Gulf War 80% of Saddam's WMD had been destroyed - but still, 20% is 20%, and what had happened to it?

b) Saddam was extremely reluctant to allow any more foreign troops or inspectors go through his country and turning stones

c) UN weapon inspectors couldnt find anything

d) the war lasted much shorter than we expected, and considering the chaos that became apparent in Saddam's military strategy very soon, that would have left the Iraq regime with very little opportunity to fully dismantle, destroy and/or hide complex WMD programs (UN inspectors have testified that even past WMD programs leave traces that can be found back and identified, after all, let alone hastily dismantled ones).

e) none of the different inspection teams the US occupation force set up after its occupation of the country, when it had full access to all Iraq's territory, found anything that proved anything.

c), d) and e) all strongly suggest that Saddam didnt have anymore WMD, which is what I had vaguely suspected. But then why b)? Why wasnt he eager to show all the world so, and thus prove himself 'innocent'? Thats the big question, and though I have no links available, I've seen a range of hypothesis about them, which your option 1) hardly reflects.

For example, to pick just the one: North-Korea has, unlike Iraq, not been attacked. One obvious reason is that about North-Korea we know for sure that it has WMD, of the kind that destroy a whole lot more than any of the ones Saddam was accused of having could.

Perhaps Saddam thought it actually advantageous to have its enemies - whether it be the US with its war threats or Israel, which bombed Iraq before - thinking that it still had WMD, even when they were already destroyed? As a deterrance?

If so, he was badly mistaken, but yeh, well possible, just one of the possibilities. So you might want to rephrase those options and make 'em less like mere political rhetorics.

Phallacy is the bon mot there, Nimh!

How apropos.

ROTFL

It was indeed. I didn't ROTML; I did SMMTME.

Zogby poll:

Released: September 06, 2003
Bush Numbers Hit New Low

President George W. Bush’s job performance ratings have reached the lowest point since his pre-Inauguration days, continuing a steady decline since a post-9/11 peak, according to a new Zogby America poll of 1,013 likely voters conducted September 3-5.

Less than half (45%) of the respondents said they rated his job performance good or excellent, while a majority (54%) said it was fair or poor. In August Zogby International polling, his rating was 52% positive, 48% negative. Today’s results mark the first time a majority of likely voters have given the president an unfavorable job performance rating since he took office

mamaj, I love it! It's showing the trend that makes my day. Thank you.

I knew basically what you meant, mamajuana and that you made a generalized statement that left some holes. After seeing "The Pianist" again last night on DVD and what happened to the city of Warsaw, we simply haven't had that kind of experience. 9/11 is the closest thing and IMHO, we offered ourselves up like sacrificial lambs for that one. It almost made U.S. Intelligence into an oxymoron. The failure to find WMD and the "intelligence" that Hussein was on the verge of having a nuclear weapon didn't help. The U.S. is between the devil and the deep blue sea on this one -- on one hand unleasing the CIA with covert espionage tactics in foreign countries and risking stritting up more terrorism like during the Reagan administration with the abortive attempt to assassinate a Lebonese religious leader (among others, admittedly going back through Democratic leadeship as well).

well, glad something i wrote worked :-)

(you know that I actually doubted about it, and then left it there? sucks ... the better a foreign speaker's english, the more likely it is that his mistakes are really tricky ones too ...

i guess "misestimation" is not really a word either, huh?)

I know more than anyone else, what you mean - although I certainly can't reach up your skills in English [I'm "attached" to 'Rhinelaender' and not to an American ].
:wink: