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The UN, US and Iraq IV

 
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 03:39 pm
Just on general principals I hate the collectivism of the electoral college. It's a college that should have been graduated from by this time.
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pistoff
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 04:37 pm
Electorial college
It should be abolished because it has no practical function.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 07:21 pm
Quote:
The terrorist attacks of September 11th 2001 have not only widened the differences between America and the rest of the world, but have also deepened divisions within the country itself, says John Parker
http://www.economist.com/printedition/displayStory.cfm?Story_ID=2172066
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dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 07:29 pm
sometimes when your looking for truth, truth knocks on your door. You answer, through the door, that your busy looking for truth.
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Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 8 Nov, 2003 07:39 pm
There is still an elite faction of our society that runs the country -- don't tell me all those attorneys in Congress and the Senate aren't owned by private interest with a lot of money. That's a bird in Australia or a river in Egypt bull-crappy.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 02:39 am
A little late posting my opinion about this news (but better late then never):

Quote:
"This is to remind the town that we have teeth and claws and we will use them," said Lt. Col. Steven Russell, commander of the 1st Battalion, 22nd Infantry Regiment...

Late Friday, U.S. troops fired mortars and a U.S. jets dropped at least three 500-pound bombs around the crash site, rattling windows over a wide area in an apparent show of force.


Above from AP via Atlanta-Journal-Constitution.

This sounds to me like Lt. Col. Russell has been in consultation with Trent Lott:

Quote:
"Honestly, it's a little tougher than I thought it was going to be," Lott said. In a sign of frustration, he offered an unorthodox military solution: "If we have to, we just mow the whole place down, see what happens. You're dealing with insane suicide bombers who are killing our people, and we need to be very aggressive in taking them out."


Or maybe he's a Monty Python fan:

Quote:
Captain Carpenter: We've been on red alert for three days sir, and still have no sign of Mr. Neutron.

General: Have we bombed anywhere? Have we shown 'em we got teeth?

Captain Carpenter: Oh yessir. We've bombed a lot of places flat, sir.

General: Good. Good. We don't want anyone to think we're chicken.


--Monty Python's Flying Circus, "Mr. Neutron"

Now, I'm reasonably sure (just to avoid using any of the absolutes that Scrat so despises) that driving around a hostile city taking random potshots at "suspected" insurgent hideouts and dropping bombs on uninhabited mud flats are not part of any generally accepted counter-insurgency doctrine. They're not nearly brutal enough to terrify the population into submission, but they're a great way of showing the insurgents that you've been reduced to helpless, impotent rage -- which is pretty much the state of mind they're trying to induce.

I'll let others figure out how many of the Geneva Conventions Lt. Col. Russell and his men violated. But I've got a feeling we're only a few months -- maybe just a few weeks -- away from adopting the Israeli policy of demolishing the houses of suspected terrorists and kicking their families out into the street.

Which still won't be brutal enough to break the population's will to resist, but might at least make Senator Lott happy. Evil or Very Mad
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McTag
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 03:26 am
Very bleak, PDiddie.

I'm glad that some of these things are being reported in mainstream media outlets now. As you allude, it's beyond parody: Dr Strangelove is here now. How many generations do you think, the relations between east and west, islamic and western, have been put back by this action?
One thing's for sure, they (islamic peoples) don't have to refer back to the Crusades now for example of western enmity. It's here now, and it's being documented and filmed.
A gift from Allah for terrorist recruitment.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 03:40 am
Here's some more on "Operation Teeth and Claws":

Quote:
After midnight, [Lt. Col. Steven] Russell's convoy of Humvees and Bradley fighting vehicles, their headlights turned off, set out across Tikrit toward the three buildings insurgents were suspected of using. Shoulder-fired rockets, a missile, and heavy machine gun fire slammed into an abandoned warehouse. Soldiers yelled, "Knock, knock," and "Good morning" in celebration as the structure crumbled amid clouds of dust and smoke.

Although most houses had their lights on, nobody dared to look outside. When a woman was heard coughing from inside one house, soldiers trained their guns and the red laser night-sights on a second-floor window. The coughing quickly stopped.


That'll teach those God-damned Hadjis to cough at us! Don't they know we've got teeth?

At least they weren't moaning:

Quote:
There was no telling how far the unorganized insurrection of moaning might have gone if General Dreedle himself had not come forward to quell it, stepping determinedly in the center of the platform directly in front of Major Danby, who, with his earnest, persevering head down, was still concentrating on his wrist watch and saying "... twenty-five seconds ... twenty ... fifteen ..." General Dreedle's great, red domineering face was gnarled with perplexity and oaken with awesome resolution. "That will be all men," he ordered tersely, his eyes glaring with disapproval and his square jaw firm, and that's all there was. "I run a fighting outfit," he told them sternly, when the room had grown absolutely quiet and the men on the benches were all cowering sheepishly, "and there'll be no more moaning in this group as long as I'm in command. Is that clear?"

It was clear to everybody but Major Danby, who was still concentrating on his wrist watch and counting down the seconds aloud. "... four ... three ... two ... one... time!" called out Major Danby, and raised his eyes triumphantly to discover that no one had been listening to him and that he would have to begin all over again. "Ooooh," he moaned in frustration.

"What was that!" roared General Dreedle incredulously, and whirled around in a murderous rage upon Major Danby, who staggered back in terrified confusion and began to quail and perspire. "Who is this man?"

"M-Major Danby, sir," Colonel Cathcart stammered. "My group operations officer."

"Take him out and shoot him," ordered General Dreedle.

"S-sir?"

"I said take him out and shoot him. Can't you hear?"

"Yes sir!" Colonel Cathcart responded smartly, swallowing hard, and turned in a brisk manner to his chauffeur and his meteorologist. "Take Major Danby out and shoot him."

"S-sir?" his chauffeur and his meteorologist stammered.

"I said take Major Danby out and shoot him," Colonel Cathcart snapped. "Can't you hear?"

The two young lieutenants nodded lumpishly and gaped at each other in stunned and flaccid reluctance, each waiting for the other to initiate the procedure of taking Major Danby outside and shooting him...


Joseph Heller, Catch-22
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 07:29 am
I dont think things are going too badly from Rumsfeld's point of view. The Americans have taken control of the bits of Iraq they wanted. The rest of the country is in a state of anarchy, but that gives an excuse to stay. It might be costing more than anticipated, but some cost in terms of lost troops and materiel was inevitable. Meanwhile having the war on terror move to a live fire zone keeps the military and the rest of the country on its toes.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 10:05 am
Latest Al Queda Attack in Saudi Backfires ... Arabs waking up?
Quote:
Reuters/Yahoo


Angry Saudis Say Ramadan Bomb Will Weaken Militants


By Dominic Evans and Fahd al-Frayyan

RIYADH (Reuters) - Shocked and angered at an apparent suicide bombing against Muslim families in the midst of the holy month of Ramadan, ordinary Saudis said the bombing on Sunday would destroy any lingering support for Muslim militants ...
... "We were all shocked last night. I think they lost substantial support among those who used to show some sympathy with them," said Mohsen al-Awajy, a moderate Islamist jailed for several years in the 1990s for his opposition views.


Khaled Batarfi, managing editor of al Medinah newspaper, said the militants, who seek the overthrow of House of Saud and expulsion of Westerners from the Arabian peninsula, were losing the battle for "hearts and minds" of ordinary Saudis.


"This was their main battle. In the past they would pretend to be against Americans, Christians -- whoever they perceive to be the enemy. Now their enemy is the same people whose approval they seek."
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 10:29 am
And what about the Iraqis in Iraq?

Quote:

U.S. shelling angers Iraqis

Sunnis take offense at Tikrit bombing.

Published Sunday, November 9, 2003
TIKRIT, Iraq (AP) - Houses shook, walls cracked, chandeliers swayed and children woke up screaming for their parents as U.S. planes dropped 500-pound bombs on the outskirts of Saddam Hussein's hometown overnight.

The show of force late Friday and early yesterday was a warning to the 120,000 people of Tikrit not to support insurgents, suspected of shooting down a Black Hawk helicopter hours earlier, killing six soldiers.

But while it succeeded in scaring residents, the barrage only confirmed for many that the United States is their enemy.

"Now that it's over, I feel we have won a new lease on life," said a retired Iraqi general, wearing a traditional Arab robe and looking fatigued after a sleepless night buffeted by the sounds of U.S. fury. He and other residents across the city described a night of damage and disruption.

Anti-U.S. sentiment runs deep in this city, once a dusty backwater famous as the birthplace of the medieval Muslim general Saladin and the delicious watermelons grown along the banks of the muddy Tigris River

Since the U.S. 4th Infantry Division moved in last April, it has become known for mounting some of the fiercest resistance to the U.S.-led occupation. U.S. officials say the 4th ID has suffered more attacks than any major command within the occupation force. Yet efforts to curb the resistance breed even more hatred for coalition forces.

U.S. soldiers raid homes in Tikrit and outlaying villages almost daily in search of insurgents and weapons. The raids stoke the increasing resentment among Tikritis, who view them as a breach of centuries-old customs about the sanctity of someone's home.

Cultural offense and a sense of humiliation are often cited by Iraqis when asked why they despise the Americans.

Like their fellow Sunni Arab Muslims in central and western Iraq, Tikritis have lost the elevated status they had enjoyed because Saddam, himself a Sunni, was one of them. As members of a minority, they now play second fiddle to Iraq's Shiite Muslims, the majority they had oppressed for centuries but which has now emerged as the single most dominant community.

Tikrit, some 120 miles north of Baghdad, was quiet yesterday but the events of the day's early hours prompted many to air grievances against the U.S. occupation.

"We fight them not because we lost our prestige," said Miqdad, a second lieutenant in the city's police force and a former officer in Saddam's elite Republican Guard. "We fight them as a matter of honor, dignity and in the name of Islam."

Miqdad, wearing a gray Arab robe on his day off from the $150-a-month police job, wouldn't give his last name, but he spoke freely about the "humiliation" of living under U.S. occupation in post-Saddam Iraq.

"I know that the lowliest of U.S. soldiers can just handcuff me and make me lay face down on dirt," he said with a hint of anger in his voice. "I feel like a piece of decor. But what can I do? I need the money."

Miqdad said many worshippers chose to stay home rather than venture out for religious services which most pious Muslims are rigorous about performing during the holy month of Ramadan.

"Saddam will be back, God willing," said Serajeddin Saleh, a 23-year-old student whose father and elder brother have been detained by the U.S. military since July. "It's not impossible."

Like many in Tikrit, the retired general refused to have his name published for fear of reprisals by the United States. However, he was keen to recount a night of fear and anguish that brought U.S. tanks and Humvees practically to the doorsteps of his home, a one-story dwelling less than 200 yards from where the Black Hawk crashed.

He recalled that eight or nine U.S. tanks were deployed in the area around his house starting from sunset Friday. Machine guns fitted on tanks and Humvees opened up on a half-completed house nearby, which he said belonged to a police colonel serving under the U.S.-backed, Tikrit local council.

The general's 70-year-old sister who lives at the same house and suffers from a heart condition trembled with fear all night, and the entire family sought to calm her down fearing that she might die.

"We Iraqis know the ethics of war and we know that knights don't do what the Americans are doing here," said the retired officer. "What were they shooting at anyway? I think they just wanted to terrorize us."
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 10:32 am
BTW, timber:

if evryone here would use the 'huge font' on her/his reponses, it certainly would be much easier for as elderly to read, on the one side ...

but could be taken as a kind of 'aggressive loudness' by some and stretches a single reponse quite a lot on the other hand as well. :wink:
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 10:34 am
Steve, your remark that "The rest of the country iis in anarchy" is unsupported by observed conditions. The "Anarchy" to which you allude is absent from most of the country. In the map below, you will find red dots marking the location of the latest insurgency attacks, three clustered near Mosul, two in the Sunni Triangle. The lighter colored highlighted areas show previous attacks going back to May 1, showing a clear preponderance in the Sunni Triangle and in and around metro Baghdad. Most of the incidents in the South occurred shortly after May 1.

http://www.able2know.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10156/map2.jpg
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 10:40 am
Walter, the page shouldn't be stretched by that ... it doesn't appear stretched on any of my monitors. If there's a problem, I'd like to work to sort it out.

Oh, and as for the article you cite, there's no surprise the Sunnis, particularly in and around Tikrit, take a negative stance re the folks who ended their 30 year domination of Iraq's non-Sunni majority. By and large, those folks Are the displaced Ba'athists.
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 11:08 am
Well if anarchy is not rife in Iraq, I'm pleased. I will book a Christmas break in Falluja.

I'm sorry Timber but I really can't buy into anything but a cynical interpretation of what is going on in Iraq.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 11:12 am
I can appreciate that, Steve, and not fault you a bit for it. I don't share your view, but I believe you to be informed and sincere, even if wrong :wink:

Oh, Christmas in Fallujah would prolly be a bad idea, at least this year. I expect our own Year-End-Holiday Season will appeal to the insurgents for the symbolic value of maintaining the unrest they have fommented during their own current Ramadan. I doubt they'll meet with much success, but I don't doubt that the attempts are very much in their plans.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 11:27 am
Quote:
http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/images/masthead.gif
S Korea to send troops to Iraq
From a correspondent in Seoul
10nov03

SOUTH Korea confirmed today that it will send thousands of troops to Iraq to help US forces there ...
Article


The article goes on with a tone of "Yeah, but ..." which is rather to be expected. Still, the South Koreans of late have been a bit more dependable than have the Turks.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 11:28 am
timberlandko wrote:


Oh, Christmas in Fallujah would prolly be a bad idea, at least this year.


Especially, since the only flights from Germany to Iraq are for US and/or military personal only :wink:
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 11:43 am
and most of those are evacuating wounded.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 9 Nov, 2003 12:14 pm
In comments made at the National Conference on Media Reform in Madison this week, Walter Cronkite made the following observation:

Quote:
"Preventive war is a theory, a policy, that was put forth by the president in his policy address," Cronkite observed. "It upsets all of our previous concepts about the use of power. It is particularly worrying when our power is almost unchallenged around the world. It seems to me that this preventive action is a terrible policy to put forth to other nations. If we are viewed as a pacesetter by other nations, this is a policy that could lead to eternal war around the world. If every small nation with a border dispute believes they can go ahead and launch a pre-emptive war and that it will be approved by the greatest power, that is a very dangerous thing."


Cronkite Fears Media Mergers Threaten Democracy

Cronkite has known every President since Roosevelt, so I would tend to accept his view as authoritative.

For a slight digression, consider this question:

An Iraqi boy's parents are killed in a random misadventure. His religion teaches him that infidels are unwelcome and must be expelled. This boy grows up with an ember of grief and resentment blown into white-hot revenge by the teachings of Islam.

Whose fault is that? Bush's? Saddam's? Islam's?

Dubya continues to link Saddam to 9/11 despite by his own admission (not to mention all of the evidence) that there is no such link:

Quote:
A free and peaceful Iraq will make it more likely that our children and grandchildren will be able to grow up without the horrors of September the 11th.


Now, most importantly, here's the postulate Bush is proferring:

If Iraq had not been invaded, the United States would have suffered a massive terrorist attack sponsored and/or funded by Saddam Hussein.

I would like to know who here believes this is/was a legitimate concern.
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